December 1997 - ipv6-wg - mailman.ripe.net

RIPE29: IPV6 WG Agenda
by Thomas Trede 29 Dec '97

29 Dec '97

Hello, here comes the first draft for the agenda of the IPV6 WG at RIPE29. Please feel free to send comments/suggestions to me. But please be also aware of the fact that I will be on holiday until January 11th, 1998. Regards, Thomas Proposed Agenda for the IPV6 Working Group RIPE-29, Januar 1998, Amsterdam 1st Draft, 28.12.1997 1. Administrative stuff (Thomas Trede, chair) - volunteering of the scribe - agenda bashing 2. Reports - 6Bone - IETF, proceedings IPV6 - IPV6 Adressing Architecture: input/presentation by Rob Blokzijl and Daniel Karrenberg - News about manufacturers implementation - input from the audience (so prepare yourself !) 3. Current status of RIPE regarding address assignments in IPV6 - with input from RIPE NCC (if available/necessary) 4. General Input from other Working Groups 5. AOB

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05 Dec '97

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Re: (IPng 5002) Re: Last Call: IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture to Proposed Standard
by huitema＠bellcore.com 04 Dec '97

04 Dec '97

On Dec 2, 4:48am, bmanning(a)isi.edu wrote: > In short, I differ from Mike in that my values for "believed to be viable" > differ, apparently wildly, from his and brians. I'm unconvinced that > this will remain a true, long term technological argument. I'd like to > see something besides, "too hard with 1990's technologies". "Long time" > ought to have a better spec than say, Internet Dog Years? Bill, What you say is true. Technology is going to progress, and at some point in the future we may convince ourselves that we can safely handle 1,000,000 TLAs instead of 10,000. However: 1) We are not there yet. Andrew Brodnik et al demonstrated that one can efficiently compress today's routing tables in the cache of a Pentium chip. But their algorithm has yet to be implemented in commercial routers. 2) There is more to scaling than routers' caches. Compressing the tables in cache memory mainly allows you to switch packets faster than if your tables were kept in a slow RAM. It does not reduce route flaps, or the complexity of the topology. 3) In any case, we are taking decision today based on today's technology. As I pointed out, there is plenty of address space reserved for further use. If the technology does evolve, then it will be time to open more space. In short, limiting the size of TLA to 13 bits looks like a reasonable cut, today. -- Christian Huitema

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Re: (IPng 4984) Re: Last Call: IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture to Proposed Standard
by Scott Bradner 02 Dec '97

02 Dec '97

Daniel said: I have seen some of this discussion. I am afraid I have seen no documented discussion revealing the reasoning behind fixing the TLA length and fixing it at 13 bits. Frankly I have been surprised by the sudden speed of the provider based addressing standardisation. last year in regards to what is now RFC 2050 I asked the lawyers that do work for the IESG what restrictions in flexibility we (the IETF) have in the area of defining rules and technology that restricts ISP practices. I was told that the only time we can be restrictive is when there is no other technically reasonable option - I support Daniel here, if this field is to be restricted to a specific length then we must have very good technical reasons for doing so. Scott

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Re: Minutes of the IPv6 WG at RIPE 27 and 28
by Alain Durand 02 Dec '97

02 Dec '97

On Nov 30, 12:08am, Thomas Trede wrote: > Subject: Minutes of the IPv6 WG at RIPE 27 and 28 > > Hello, > > the draft minutes for the IPv& WG at RIPE 27 and 28 have been circulated > on the mailing list and are published at www.ripe.net. > If someone has comments or changes, please give me a feedback. > If there are no comments or request for changes up to the 10th of December > 1997, the status will be advanced from "draft" to "final" I was not at this RIPE meeting, but I have received the following message from Daniel Karrenberg and Robert Blokzijl (speaking in the name of RIPE and RIPE-NCC) as a response to an IESG last call. I would like to know if this subject was discussed or not at RIPE IPv6 WG and if this statement reflect the position of this WG, - Alain Durand. ^_^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ U (* *) Alain DURAND | Preserve keyboards: | ( v ) I.M.A.G. | use completion. | /~~~\ Direction des Moyens Informatiques |----------------------------- <|=< IP >= BP 53 38041 Grenoble Cedex 9 | E-Mail: Alain.Durand(a)imag.fr | \ v6/ France | Phone: +33 4 76 63 57 03 | <~~< Postmaster(a)imag.fr | Fax: +33 4 76 51 49 64 ~ ~ On Nov 26, 6:05pm, Daniel Karrenberg wrote: > Subject: (IPng 4984) Re: Last Call: IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture t > To: iesg(a)ietf.org > > > Authors > > Robert Blokzijl > RIPE Chair > > Daniel Karrenberg > RIPE NCC General Manager > > > Background > > RIPE is an organisation founded in 1989 wich aims to ensure the > technical and administrative coordination necessary for the operation of > the Internet in Europe [ripe-01]. > > The RIPE NCC performs activities for the benefit of the Internet service > providers (ISPs) in Europe and the surrounding areas; primarily > activities that the ISPs need to organise as a group, although they may > be competing with each other in other areas. In particular the RIPE > NCC, as Regional Internet Registry, allocates and assigns IPv4 address > space in Europe and surrounding areas [ripe-162]. The RIPE NCC started > operations in 1992. It currently allocates address space to more than > 800 local Internet Registries almost all of which are operated by ISPs. > The number of local IRs is expected to reach 1250 in 1998. There are > currently no indications that the number of local IRs will stop growing. > > The authors have contributed significantly to the development of the > distributed Internet registry system which is used for the allocation > and assignment of provider based IPv4 address space today. As such they > have ample experience with the development of address space allocation > and assignment policies. One important element of current policies is > that the size of address space allocations is determined by previous > justified use of address space. A prerequisite for this policy is that > the size of allocations can start small and increase or decrease > according to previous justified usage [ripe-159]. > > > Argument > > We believe <draft-ietf-ipngwg-unicast-aggr-02.txt> is critically flawed > because it standardises address aggregation boundaries without any > explicit technical justification. In particular the length of the TLA > and NLA fields are proposed to be standardised as fixed at prarticular > values with no technical justification for either the fact that these > lengths need to be fixed nor for the particular values chosen. The lack > of technical justification is significant because the standardisation of > TLA and NLA lengths directly influences many elements of Internet > operations including address space allocation policies. In particular > the TLA being fixed at 13bit length makes only 8K TLAs available per FP. > Consequently Internet Registries will not be able to use proven > allocation policies but rather engage in regulatory practises. The > rules proposed in <draft-ietf-ipngwg-tla-assignment-01.txt> are clear > evidence of this. Broad acceptance of such rules and their implementation > is extremely unlikely unless there is convincing technical reasoning > behind the constraints that necessitate the rules. > > Because of this critical flaw we request that the IESG not advance > <draft-ietf-ipngwg-unicast-aggr-02.txt> and > <draft-ietf-ipngwg-addr-arch-v2-05.txt> to proposed standard yet. We > suggest that the IESG refer these documents back to the authors and the > WG with the request to provide technical justification for the placement > of aggregation boundaries and to consider making these boundaries > variable where technically feasible. > > > References > > The referenced RIPE documents can be accessed at > > http://www.ripe.net/docs/ripe-xxx.html HTML > ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-xxx.txt ASCII > ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-xxx.ps PostScript > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo(a)sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- End of excerpt from Daniel Karrenberg

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Re: (IPng 4997) Re: Last Call: IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture to Proposed Standard
by huitema＠bellcore.com 01 Dec '97

01 Dec '97

Daniel, There were two basic arguments for limiting the length of the TLA prefix: 1) Routing table size. All TLA have to be in all tables in all defaultless routers. Thus, the number of TLAs becomes a minorant of the size of the tables. 2) Address space size. The current document only specifies 1/8th of the address space. If it turns out that there is a need for many more TLA's in three years, it will actually be possible to make some. The particular value chosen, 13 bits, as only one advantage. The combination of format and TLA fits in 16 bits, which provides for easy writing of routing prefixes. The point that you note re: allocation practices is, however, perfectly true. ISPs should not receive a TLA 'a priori", they should graduate to it. If I remeber correctly, an ISP that starts operating in Europe today receives a /19, and will gradually receive more space as it connects more customers. An ISP that starts operating with IPv6 should receive one or several NLAs from established transit providers; it should only receive a global entry in the routing tables once it has passed some "graduation" criteria. -- Christian Huitema

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Re: Last Call: IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture to Proposed Standard
by Daniel Karrenberg 01 Dec '97

01 Dec '97

Authors Robert Blokzijl RIPE Chair Daniel Karrenberg RIPE NCC General Manager Background RIPE is an organisation founded in 1989 wich aims to ensure the technical and administrative coordination necessary for the operation of the Internet in Europe [ripe-01]. The RIPE NCC performs activities for the benefit of the Internet service providers (ISPs) in Europe and the surrounding areas; primarily activities that the ISPs need to organise as a group, although they may be competing with each other in other areas. In particular the RIPE NCC, as Regional Internet Registry, allocates and assigns IPv4 address space in Europe and surrounding areas [ripe-162]. The RIPE NCC started operations in 1992. It currently allocates address space to more than 800 local Internet Registries almost all of which are operated by ISPs. The number of local IRs is expected to reach 1250 in 1998. There are currently no indications that the number of local IRs will stop growing. The authors have contributed significantly to the development of the distributed Internet registry system which is used for the allocation and assignment of provider based IPv4 address space today. As such they have ample experience with the development of address space allocation and assignment policies. One important element of current policies is that the size of address space allocations is determined by previous justified use of address space. A prerequisite for this policy is that the size of allocations can start small and increase or decrease according to previous justified usage [ripe-159]. Argument We believe <draft-ietf-ipngwg-unicast-aggr-02.txt> is critically flawed because it standardises address aggregation boundaries without any explicit technical justification. In particular the length of the TLA and NLA fields are proposed to be standardised as fixed at prarticular values with no technical justification for either the fact that these lengths need to be fixed nor for the particular values chosen. The lack of technical justification is significant because the standardisation of TLA and NLA lengths directly influences many elements of Internet operations including address space allocation policies. In particular the TLA being fixed at 13bit length makes only 8K TLAs available per FP. Consequently Internet Registries will not be able to use proven allocation policies but rather engage in regulatory practises. The rules proposed in <draft-ietf-ipngwg-tla-assignment-01.txt> are clear evidence of this. Broad acceptance of such rules and their implementation is extremely unlikely unless there is convincing technical reasoning behind the constraints that necessitate the rules. Because of this critical flaw we request that the IESG not advance <draft-ietf-ipngwg-unicast-aggr-02.txt> and <draft-ietf-ipngwg-addr-arch-v2-05.txt> to proposed standard yet. We suggest that the IESG refer these documents back to the authors and the WG with the request to provide technical justification for the placement of aggregation boundaries and to consider making these boundaries variable where technically feasible. References The referenced RIPE documents can be accessed at http://www.ripe.net/docs/ripe-xxx.html HTML ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-xxx.txt ASCII ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-xxx.ps PostScript

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