January 2002 - eix-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Draft Minutes of RIPE41 eix-wg
by Fearghas McKay 31 Jan '02

31 Jan '02

Here are the draft minutes of the RIPE41 meeting. Please send any comments/corrections etc to me. I will approve them early next week. Thanks Fearghas RIPE 41 / EIX WG / Grand Ballroom / Wed 16/01/2002 Chairman: Fearghas MacKay Scribe: David Knight <dknight(a)ripe.net> - Agenda bashing - Bill Manning / Peering Contacts DB Card swap parties .. Noticeable dirth of European participants Bill will collect contacts to have Europeans added to the DB - CO Chairs Fearghas Proposes: Mike Hughes / Christian Panigl Approved - BCP update - Nic Lewis Has been discused last couple of meetings Large amount of work Proving diffcult to actually find best current practices - Progress There is lots of overlap with EuroIX A dialog is maintained with EuroIX Outcome - Nic has been asked to assist making a website with them, and will help to harmonise application procedures - Breakdown Working to harmonise joining procedures Standardise tech procedures - Considerations Concerns about adoption EuroIX is paid for, results are more quickly forthcoming Nic thinks EuroIX is a good vehicle for this work it may serve the community better than the bcp, he sugests transferring the work to EuroIX Nic is not directly employed by EuroIX The work remains visible to the community - No objections - Questions ? None - IPv6 Allocation Policy for IXPs - Fearghas MacKay - Fearghas asks if there is any feedback None - Tools Wish List - Mike Hughes Version 2 of the wishlist is up on the WG site Keith has promised input, as has Christian, more to come from the meeting with Cisco Cisco have started a list, poor account mgmt meant this didn't get to the right parts of cisco , now it has they are interested in this info People from amsix / milan / exchange poiunt and arnold from decix joined in meeting with cisco Cisco realise that they neglected the community of late, due likely to their poor market share in euro IX's It was a very good event ... Cisco alluded to having more events ... Something good has come from the document already ! - Christian - There will be a mailing list of exchange operators - Mike - A number of IXP operators were invited but couldn't make it so close to ripe41 Cisco alluded to Amsterdam as next location It's a good sign that vendors are prepared to work with IXPs Extreme and Foundry seem to be taking things from the list and implementing Mike is the list editor, contact him to add to the list ** Can you add the url for the document on the website. - IXP Presentations - BLNX - First Presentation - Stefan It is publically founded limited company (gmbh) The majority of shares held by founders BLNX is a classical IX They are neutral They are independent of local carriers - Ports 100/1000 IEEE802.3 E3/T3/STM-1 SDH - Free Stuff Stratum 1 clock Ticketised support - Where Berlin 4 locations Friedrichstrasse east Gradestrasse south Lutzowstrasse west Alboinstrasse west They are looking for wireless solutions as connections are expensive and difficult - They have good business plan need for backup growing bandwidth location near new customers / coming east germany and poland Talking to people in Poland who are interested in coming to Berlin - Contracts IPBerlin, Akamai, go.ana Signed LOI's Four big ISP / 3 midsize ISP - The Truth They want to get rich It can be done Berlin is the growing centre as you extend to the east www.blnx.net - Questions 4 locations for a startup seems like a lot, sounds like some colo arrangements are in place, are the sites managed by other parties, what is the relationship ? Are you neural from the colo ? - Nobody is here now, no 24/7 support they will rent space and install own techies carriers here now: level3, computel If you are considering wireless .. does this suggest something wrong with your business model ? Does that seem reasonable to you ? - There is some concern, that they are not reliable. There is a problem in berlin, carriers put in much fibre, but it is expensive. If you cannot reliably interconnect 4 locations, should you really be at 4 locations ? I have not heard of wireless used in this way before. - This is a proven technology, microwave works, it is reliable to STM-1 but higher bandwidth is the limitation ... - At locations 1/2 must be links lower than stm1m, once we have money we can get fibre. As a point of clarification, when you say wireless some people may assume you mean 802.11b, you mean traditional telco microwave ? - Yes, and we do this with xtreme / cisco - FICIX - Jorme Mellin Chair - jome(a)song.fi - History Founded in 1993 by Telecom Finland / Helsinki Telephone co 10 mbps ether switch registry for .fi ccTLD 1996 Upgraded to ATM 1997 .fi moved to FICORA 1999 Aditional IX founded / Cisco 8540, 155ATM and 622ATM 2001 Association founded / 11 operators signed - Status 4 members Carrier independent 155atm and 622atm available FICIX1 / FICIX2 IPv4 and IPv6 matrix in palce KONQwuest is service provider of physical maintenance Non profit association Elected trustees - Traffic stats http://stats1.kpnqwuest.fi/ - Joining Apply to ficix(a)ficix.fi Must be present at both peering points - 2 member classes Full no peering agreements needed Supporting Member / Peering agreements needed - Details No colo space nor fibre Fibre available from several proveders to both locations Expected port cost ifs 500 Euro after FICIX1 upgrade to gigE ATM155 avail til q4/02 - Future IPv6 in place ... peering exists Thinking about multicast Possible relocation of ficix1 ... Could also provide colo space or move to area with plenty colo space Hoping for somewhere in the capital area - URL www.ficix.fi - Questions None - AMSIX - Henk Steenman - Status Not much infrastructure change since RIPE40 4 sites: nikhef / sara / telectuy / global switch Nikhef - Sara quad gE connect, other sites double gE - Stats 124 members 177 routers Most ports at nihef (90) / sara (66) Yesterday for the frst time they exceede 6gig/s They are growing fast As a consequence, they as looking to upggrade the connects to the 4 sites They have a seperate vlan for gprs roaming exchange, currenty 18 ports Managing private .gprs root server Have been assigned a /84 for ipv6 AS1200 moved to dual stack, all existing ipv6 peerings will move to the production router - Main changes are organisational ... Operational mgmt was always outsourced, now they have their own noc they manage the exchange 24/7 AMSIX office is now located at Westeinde 12 in central Amsterdam which houses the office, noc and euroix Total staff is now 9 - Questions ? None - DECIX - Arnold - As last time ... They have been working for a longtime on a new global framework They have scheduled meetings for mid February Decix is going now and they need a good legal framework Membership is stable, some left due to mergers, etc They hope to hit 100 mark in the middle of this year - Operational They must replace their route server Must have full control over prefixes Second router server is under development, will be installed for increased resilience, as well as new features, not just for filtering but also prefix filtering, they replace the cisco filter with a new siemens / spacrc box End last year, 30 Dec they were hit bya mutlicast storm. It took them 12 hours to isolate and control. It's not yet understood what happened, they could identify all involved ports were on gsr and gig ether, there is curently a cisco case open, they hope to learn more, they will upgrade to latest ios to support mcast suppression, since 6.5 this is possible. This demonstrated the lack of tools to identify these problems, they already took the initiative and said to euroix that they need the tools. - Stats Traffic is increasing, but not much since last time Peaking at almost 5 gigs - Projects MCAST started mid last year, ten members involved Trial will continue until mid this year, then enter prod as a regular service IPV6 started last October, no participants, the project will continue until the end of this year Surprised by the lack of interest - Questions ? None - CIXP - Paolo - Since last time ... Much industry consolidation means router size has increased First non cisco in production during 2001 First gigE ports allocated Growth in WDM kit used by telco operators Number of members is constant Steady growth in traffic - Status They are partnered with Telehouse Switzerland, expansion site in downtown geneva, no gigE there yet They plan to setup vlans for backtoback peerings More gig capacity in 2002, only price difference is the install charge They participate in EuroIX They cooperate with other euro research projects Also some interest from commercial in IPv6 They plan to have ipv6 research peerings New URL http://www.cixp.ch/ - redesign in cooperation with Telehouse is planned Looking glass is operational, only for members, peering with AS513 Renewed interest in the mcast testbed, a real service during 2002 - Questions ? None - INXS - Udo <udo(a)cw.net> - History and overview One of the oldest exchanges in Germany Currently 42 members New members wating to connect Open house policy for any carrier All circuits terminate in a seperate room Patching done by C&W staff ISPs may make INXS their POP in Munich Memebers may buy and sell traffic / may have private peerings so long as they don't sell upstrweam and INXS are switching fabric Member must have their own ASN, must be a LIR, must house a router at INXS, switches or LAN not allowed No obligation to peer No route server yet Looking to participation in RIPE RIS - Fees Unchanged during euro change ... - The exchange Cisco Catalyst 6509 One ip per customer 10/100/1000 ports - Website http://www.inxs.de Members area Operators area Mailing list archives - MCAST MCAST trial only regular INXS members No fees during test phase Limited to 1/3 of INXS members Only 10/100 ports Test prolonged to mid 2002 Dedicated vlan In operation since oct 2000 - IPv6 Same rules as mcast Additional rack for ipv6 routers In operation since sep 2000 5 isps connected Currently using C&W ipv6 allocation - Status Growth in members increasing steadily Some members lost to mergers Some new members though - Contact Udo <udo(a)cw.net> - Announcements INX-HH in Hamburg is INXS Hamburg Locations not connected, no plans to do so Same contract and service will be delivered as in Munich More details on the web ... - Questions ? None - LINX - Mike Hughes <mike(a)linx.net> - Since last time ... New London Office Some kit going to a 9th location 10 gig is arriving Some work done to improve resiliency Passive private interconnects Inter provider problem resolution being worked on, Rob suggested feeding this info to the group Having problems getting into new ofice Main place for engineers / meetings / it's easily reachable No changes to phone numbers New Redbus location at Sovereign House London 50,00 square foot facility, will handle overflow from the original redbus facility which is full Diverse connectivity Full size switches from Got first 10gig cards from Foundry, tested at HQ in December Tested at Foundry UK on Jan 4th Main core can be upgraded to 10gig throughout They operate dual vendor core Currently deploying 8gig CWDM solution as it is available NOW Xenpac will bring down the price of the optics and ergo the cost for 10gig cards Currently kit comes from extreme and foundry They are considering a connection diversion policy Everyone which is single homed will be in one lan with everyone else The idea being better vendor support The main archtecture of the new split network is two 8/10gig cores with diverse fibre routes - New service Passive Private Interconnect, layer1 managed fibre This solves a problem with adhoc private interconnects, this location is londons oldest colo, risers and voids are full of cables, this helps the members out As telehouse don't provide this service linx will provide another private interconnect here too, making use oif existing fibre bundles in each building, interconnection by fibre supplied by telehouse linx will pass on the extra rental to the member, advantage being that as a private fibre the member may run whatever thyt like over it - Traffic Peak traffic this morning is just over 13gig/sec Has grown steadily since July, Code Red ? ;) This illustrates why 10gig is needed Memebership is 125 Some people changeing their models, losing members Net gain in 2001 though Good interest in LINX meetings At last meeting ran a peering sim game - Tech Challenges A ethernet switch was connected which shouldnt hhave been there One switch reacted very badly, caused ripple effects, took 8 hours for things to settle This raises questions about how to do these interconnects safely - Ongoing development - MCAST Still a seperate vlan Can extend over vlan when needed Chicken and egg scenario - IPV6 Space for peeroing allocated Chris will do some experiments - Questions ? Interest in pasive private ? - LINX does this free for thiscurrent billing period, no charge if you join now - NDIX - Rudolf van der Berg <r.vanderberg(a)ndix.net> - Based in Enschede - current site - will extend to munster and start a second site will be done with the de local govt to ensure neutrality ndix is neutral - startext by the local govt Location is in telehaus in munster, neutral location Tech matters resolved Hardest thing was a line from enschede to munster, now they have fibre Up to the politicians to getr rid o the red tape Operational by the end of the second quarter 2002 Interesing new dev in esnchede is wireless testbed, funded by govt started by University of Twente, ndi will provde head end on a seperate vlan parties may connect test kit and connect through to the internet Not just about the technology but about the application too, hospitals are involved in the tests Versatel is connected, two more telcos this quarter Rollout of wireless testbed in q1 2001 The IX is running well with no downtime so far - Questions Was there a special reason to go to Munster ? - Enschede is 5km from the German border Germany seemed a good idea They got in touch with Germans, they were interested, Munster evolved from this I know the area, I don't think that Munster is attractive ? - They disagree Munster already hs 4 telcos, several wireless operators present in the area, Universities at either end cooperating Only 20km from dortmund where stuff is happening Close to the Rhurgebied .. Why Munster and not Dusseldorf ? - Cost effective - NIX.CZ - Josef Chomyn - Status Located in Prague Non profit Est August 1996 28 members 2 left Dec 2001 2 locations 10/100/1000 ports Using Cisco Catalysts, 2948/6006/6006/4003 Gig interconnect, Cat 6000's at either end 100 interconnect, using old switches - Currently preparing gige for customers contract for 1st employee - Managing Director working on draft - nix.cz concept for the future - Contact www.nix.cz comittee(a)nix.cz - TIX - Status Not that much news Got a bigiron switch 3 gig connections 40 fast ether No ipv6, have not requested addresses Run a .ch secondary - Questions ? None - VIX - Christian Panigl - Status 50 people at workshop last year, held on their birthday Found out some interest in remote connects to the VIX, they are looking at new technologies Looking at connect agreements to allow remote router connects - Questions None - Exchange Point - Keith Mitchell - Brief update Network up for 8 months Free trial over 17 customers, making money now Hitting 100meg level Met SLA targets - Sites London: Redbus / Telehouse East - Traffic peak 93.53 MB/s avg ~60 MB/s Restatemnt of neutrality principles Lists types of interconnect Finding place in the market for virtual private interconnect, could be used to make a virtual private exchange group Lists service offerings Describes VLAN based services, see demand for p2p vpi Value add, cisco route collector - MCAST We won't get this to work properly until the vendors get together on this Community needs to bang vendor heads Extreme is not getting it's act togeter Keith desn't care about the differeing technologies, just wants something that works - New services MetroXP Multipeer - optional mip router 4 participants - IPv6 Auto adress allocations to all customers Would like to get a collector router running Hosting sec ns for .uk - Customer private web pages http://customer.xchangepoint.net Dynamic customer view Who offers transit Customers happy tpo shre data with other customers not necesarily with everyone They will host a seminar in London on Feb 7th - Questions ? None - Ethernet over Anything - Peter - Ebone - <pmm(a)ebone.net> - 2 questions for IXPs ... - You can set up p2p ethernet from anywhere to anywhere ... For IX's you could connect from anywere in the world, you don't need the router on the IX itself, Christian mentioned he will alllow remote connections in future - Not necessarily over anything Virtual routers, we will see it on IXs in future, including non ether based IXs, this ould arrive soon, whats the comments ? - Fearghas - Maybe people should think about it and comment on the list? As long as this doesn't harm the IX then why not - It could harm the IX in that with the lack of kit necessary it might harm IX kit sales, an IX doesnt need to be a physical placem it could be virtual, anywhere, conecing anything Whats the opinion ? - The possible harm was meant technically, not business models - Mike - A couple of comments from the Cisco day Link Layer is not transmitted to the IX switch What we need is OAM type thing to pass through to allow dropping at both ends if there is a failure in the middle LINX is responsible for cable fault etc, dealing with this virtually really needs link failure to work, chasing ghosts could consume a lot of man hours Managing people perception of this, remote routers cause unexpected latency they don't see that there is a extranational hop - Bill Maning - In other disciplines, how to reduce the apparent latency ? Others have done interesting things, but the only way involves trying to lie, these solutions appear attractive, but they always seem to fail Moving ether frames, what happens when you pass 10gigs this will cause the same ATM sucks opinions ... - EuroIX - John Souter - Status Non profit Established Jun 2001 Provide a portal for euro ixps 20 ixp members 725 listed isps over the 20 ixps Strugled with existing policies Approach is join now and seek a fee waiver for new ixps Operational defined as at least 3 peers and a published customer list The web site is up and is a sucess so far, fair amount of content, recording a lot of hits ... picked up a lot since the praha meeting memebers linking to it directly from their own stes ... 32000 hits since March ... most coming from Euro countries ... a significant number from US though More info soon to be added to the IXP section Conditional approval given to 3 projects ISP quality of service metrics IXP monitoring systems IXP membership application procedure Not actually begun this yet Metrics could be contraversial, going to explore though Monitoring systems would be good Applications stuff make it easy for new members to join - Questions ? None - Peering Point Interconnection - Keith Mitchell - eXchange Point - Some ideas for interconnection between ethernet MANs Not necesarrily a solution for virtual router problems ... The following is a summary of Keith's thoughts In Europe most IPP based on swithed ethernet, this technology can be used for other things, colos do it for customer interconnects, not necessarily peers We have competing ISPs connecting, do we want competing IXPs connecting? When is it a good idea to connect these things ? Traditional wisdom says it's always a stupid idea We have a lot of colos in europe For many IPPs its not an option to go everywere, it's convenient to use this to provide coverage Why not interconnect ? It's uncommon in Europe Only one example in Europe It's common in US, at MAE east a distributed bunch of colos and IXPs connect their switches together Layer2 switch technlogy is not a good thing to do interdomain routing with. You only have spanning tree - it sucks Shared media accidents are very easy and very troublesome It's very difficult to operate a multi admin single network What kind of applications would you want this for ? Alow customers of on IXP peer with those of another Allow them to buy/sell transit You could also bridge the exchanges with a router, this is normally an ISPs job, as an IXP you can avoid conflict of interest with a multi lateral peering router People have spoken about: You have a multi view route server, you could provide transit between the two There are lots of posibilities ... some scarier than others If you interconnect to layer2 switched nets, network hygeine, max, filters minimum scary things .. block all broadcast traffic bar arp. Keith would like switch vendors to allow filtering arp packets based on ip address Best tool is vlans ... provides most protection needed All untagged traffic blocked - dont leak, only explicitly added to vlan people should be able to talk across the interconnect STP causes a lot of problems, no filtering or policy constraints, all changes or problems proagate Using the interconnect - no stp - maybe use trunking instead New ieee stp standards 802.1s and 802.1w may help, cisco talkng about tag stacking, vlans within vlans IP addressing is not such a hard issue, you dont want to route between them, if you extend the vlan across the connection you may as well take your adress range with it, sub interfaces with the remote address range could work here It's hard for IXPs to stop customers plugging their kit in We have a model in the shape of 'peering' Don't allow arbitrary connections, sit down and hash out a bilateral agreement ... we need new language here or we get confused very quickly Working now with Packet Exchange ... and other parties White Paper available soon Keith thinks there is mileage in this ... as a community we should think about this ... - Questions ? - About a route server between nets, it's been done ... the problem is that the router must forward at line rate at gigE while route serving or have two routers ... one forwarding ... one serving, it's complex and expensive ... you could also not have a route server ... let people statically configure their connections, ebgp multi-hop They also tried running bidirectional static map across this router This is a gross hack .. but it works - No money is changing hands ... who is paying for the connection ? This is like a peering agreement ... if you work on the basis of MetroEther with abundant bandwidth ... the costs are done on a non settlement basis ... - Someone has to pay for the fibre ? Nobody is talking about extranational connects .. they are talking Metro area at most .. it's easy to justify interconnect between two admins rather than two sites under one admin - MAE Services and facilites - Thomas Bechly - WorldCom List service goals ... Have around 50 customers in Europe Using CATS AND GIGE In the US runnign atm service -- esablished pvcs for direct peering guaranteed and best effort service ... wth policing MAE East / West both distrbuted 4 sites / 2 sites Benefits allow to keep up to capacity Lists service level benefts ... rules New Service ... Customer connects Frame encap technology best pvcs between customers .. moving up the food chain with this service ... new site opening in new york and chicago In their model they use atm ... which has issues ... a frame interface fits the model and provides a clena handoff with savings in efficiency .. also keeps the exhange platform away from routing issues ... etc New service at MAE east this year More info at www.mae.net ... - Questions ? None - AOB We will try to have a session with Michael Beringer delivering a presentation on IXP servcurity.

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RIPE 41 Presentations
by Fearghas McKay 16 Jan '02

16 Jan '02

Just a reminder to EIX-WG presenters if they could mail me a copy of their presentations we can get them added to the website. Thanks Fearghas

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RIPE 41 EIX-WG Agenda - Final Draft
by Fearghas McKay 16 Jan '02

16 Jan '02

We are scheduled for the Grand Ballroom at 14:00 - 17:30 on Wednesday 16th January 2002. As ever late IXP presentations are always welcome. Proposed Agenda 1 Scribe List of Attendees Agenda bashing 2 BCP update - Nic Lewis 3 IPv6 Allocation Policy for IXPs - feedback from the community 4 Tools Wish List - Mike Hughes 5 IXP Presentations FICIX - First Presentation BLNX - First Presentation AMSIX BNIX CATNIX CIXP DECIX Espanix INXS LINX LoNAP NetnodIX NIX.CZ TIX VIX Xchange Point 6 Euro-IX Update - John Souter 7 Peering Point Interconnection - Keith Mitchell - eXchange Point 8 MAE Services and facilites - Thomas Bechly - WorldCom 9 AOB

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RIPE 41 EIX-WG Agenda
by Fearghas McKay 09 Jan '02

09 Jan '02

We are scheduled for the Grand Ballroom at 14:00 - 17:30 on Wednesday 16th January 2002. As ever late IXP presentations are always welcome. Proposed Agenda 1 Scribe List of Attendees Agenda bashing 2 BCP update - Nic Lewis 3 IPv6 Allocation Policy for IXPs - feedback from the community 4 Tools Wish List - Mike Hughes 5 IXP Presentations FICIX - First Presentation BLNX - First Presentation AMSIX BNIX CIXP DECIX Espanix LINX LoNAP NetnodIX NIX.CZ SFINX TIX VIX Xchange Point 6 Euro-IX Update - Arnold Nipper 7 Peering Point Interconnection - Keith Mitchell - eXchange Point 8 MAE Services and facilites - Thomas Bechly - WorldCom 9 AOB

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Re: presentation of BLNX
by Fearghas McKay 09 Jan '02

09 Jan '02

Sure no problem At 9:42 am +0100 9/1/02, Jan-Ahrent Czmok wrote: >Hi! > >My collegue and myself would like to give a presentation about the >BLNX (www.blnx.net) at the next RIPE Meeting in Amsterdam. > >Can you reserve some minutes for us at the EIX-WG ? > > >--jan

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