Re: [diversity] [ripe-list] Updated Draft RIPE Code of Conduct Published for Community Review
Clearly, we are talking about "corner cases", but may be not so much as a murder. For example, sexual harassment (either in a mailing list, or in private emails after a mailing list message, or in a meeting), it is a very serious crime in many countries, again, not sure if it is the case in Netherlands. (and note that in the community I'm aware of at least 3 sexual harassment cases, with different "degrees", so not so strange situation) The fact that the Trusted Contacts are "confidential" in our own "scope" or "definition", may be not according to Dutch law. In many countries, the only ones that are *free* from reporting a crime to authorities (or to keep silence about them if interrogated), and up to certain extent only, are priest (in confession) and doctors in psychology. May be there are other cases. Again, this is why it will be good to understand the legal counsel perspective here. If Rod receives a complain "in trust", and it is a crime, and the victim don't want to report it to LEA, it is Rod exclusive decision to do it or not. If doesn't do it, he may be liable if it is discovered later on (example a sexual harassment turns into a rape later on). Clearly this is a very uncomfortable situation and I fully understand the need for the trusted contacts, but law is always on top of all that, we like it or not. Further to that, if the CoC is applied to "x" because a victim accused "x" about any kind of violation, and "x" decides is not right, and turns that "x" goes into litigation for that, because even his honor has been put in doubt, it may happen that courts decide that the application of the CoC was wrong, and damaged "x" rights and it may even impose sanctions and even inseminations to RIPE NCC, because RIPE is not a "legal figure" right? And RIPE NCC is the legal organization hosting mailing lists, meetings (virtual and face-to-face), etc. So, it is a very sensible issue, because any application of the CoC, must be clearly backed-up by law. We can't just decide "this is a bad behavior" in our opinion if the concerning jurisdiction is not backing-up it. I think the complete CoC must be validaded by the legal counsel, and not just for corner cases. Taking actions against any community member for something that *even if the full community* believes is wrong, may not be legal. Even a "club of members" can't set rules that aren't conforming to law. El 25/3/21 1:38, "ripe-list en nombre de Randy Bush" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de randy@psg.com> escribió: > The reason I want to point this out, is to stress that people can > contact the Trusted Contacts in complete confidence. We will listen to > what you have to say, and in doing so there is no requirement for > others to know what is being said to us. and that is why you are *trusted* contacts. i am sure, given the creative lot we are, we could come up with corner cases involving murder, war crimes, etc. but i don't think that's why we're here, so let's not. :) randy --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header butchery ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Dear all, The Code of Conduct Task Force frequently receives input from the RIPE NCC’s legal team. You can be assured that any legal matters in the document will be closely reviewed by Athina and her team. I think it would be most helpful to the TF if you provide feedback on the general principles of the document or any specific questions you might have. Kind regards, Mirjam RIPE Chair
Hi Mirjam, all, I can't agree with that: 1) Inputs from the legal team, should be open and transparently presented to the community. 2) As with any other documents, policies, etc., Community should be able to provide any inputs that we believe necessary, and not just "general principles or specific questions". Do we have minutes from the CoC meetings and contributions from the legal team? In fact, in messages from Leo (9/11/2020) and Niall (10/11/2020), I was suggested to contribute to this work via the mailing list, so that's what we are doing (not just me). Discussing about documents is the way we always did in this community, and this discussion is not subjected to just "general principles or specific questions". Anyone that disagree with any aspect of a document can say so, and if it is not resolved, we just don't reach consensus. Further to that, I want to insist in asking what is the rational for excluding anyone from a TF, without a predefined and community accepted rules for doing so. I insist that it is a discrimination according to my knowledge of Spanish and several English dictionaries (for example "unfairly treating a person or particular group of people differently from others"). Note that I'm making this question in a generic way. Maybe I missed a RIPE document that explains it. I don't recall having seen it before, I don't recall anyone has said publicly he/she was not allowed to participate in any TF before. If such document doesn't exist, and we want to have that possibility without constituting a discrimination, we must work on that. Yes, this is a different topic as the CoC work, you may want to open a new thread on that. Now in a more specific situation, if the rejection of my participation in the CoC TF was a mistake, just say it. I don't need even a justification. Just recognize that it was a wrong decision or lacking backup from the RIPE documents and I will be happy and done with that. Otherwise, "silence" is not the way, in my opinion, and I will need to keep going asking for a rationale here and where necessary, because otherwise, we are showing to the world that we are not really and open and transparent community as we usually say. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 25/3/21 14:37, "ripe-list en nombre de Mirjam Kuehne" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió: Dear all, The Code of Conduct Task Force frequently receives input from the RIPE NCC’s legal team. You can be assured that any legal matters in the document will be closely reviewed by Athina and her team. I think it would be most helpful to the TF if you provide feedback on the general principles of the document or any specific questions you might have. Kind regards, Mirjam RIPE Chair ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Hi Jordi, On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:50 AM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
Hi Mirjam, all,
I can't agree with that:
1) Inputs from the legal team, should be open and transparently presented to the community. 2) As with any other documents, policies, etc., Community should be able to provide any inputs that we believe necessary, and not just "general principles or specific questions".
Do we have minutes from the CoC meetings and contributions from the legal team?
Yes, all discussion is very thoroughly minuted and the minutes are shared on the mailing list, as I promised you back in November: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-November/000080.html Kind regards, Leo
Tks Leo, I was understanding there are formal minutes published in the TF web page, and could not find them. I will read thru all the emails then. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 26/3/21 13:30, "ripe-list en nombre de Leo Vegoda" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de leo@vegoda.org> escribió: Hi Jordi, On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:50 AM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: > > Hi Mirjam, all, > > I can't agree with that: > > 1) Inputs from the legal team, should be open and transparently presented to the community. > 2) As with any other documents, policies, etc., Community should be able to provide any inputs that we believe necessary, and not just "general principles or specific questions". > > Do we have minutes from the CoC meetings and contributions from the legal team? Yes, all discussion is very thoroughly minuted and the minutes are shared on the mailing list, as I promised you back in November: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-November/000080.html Kind regards, Leo ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Dear all, Just to clarify the process we used to form the CoC TF: During the plenary at RIPE 81 and in an email I sent to the ripe-list on 8 September 2020 I asked for volunteers. Before the deadline specified in that email, four volunteers stepped forward. Together with two RIPE NCC support staff, the TF was formed and was announced to the ripe-list on 23 September 2020. On 25 October 2020 Jordi contacted the TF and asked to be added. Please find more details in the timeline below for reference. The TF mail archives are public and all meetings are minuted and published on the TF mailing list (linked from the TF page: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/tf/code-of-conduct-task-force). Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ====== 08 Sep 2020: Open call for volunteers to serve on TF, transparently setting deadline https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2020-September/001959.html 15 Sep 2020: Deadline for volunteers to come forward 17 Sep 20020: RIPE Chair thanks the four volunteers and charges them to set about their work 18 Sep 2020: Code of Conduct Task Force sets to work https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-September/000000.html 23 Sep 2020: Announcing CoC TF to ripe-list https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-October/000066.html 25 Oct 2020: Request received to join TF https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-October/000066.html 06 Nov 2020: TF meets and considers latecomer's request 09 Nov 2020: TF Chair advises latecomer that TF is not empowered to expand its membership, explains the arrangements to be made for transparency, and encourages latecomer to contribute to the work of the TF by posting to the TF mailing list. https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-November/000080.html
Hi Mirjam, The email sent to the list on sept. 8th, was crystal clear "*Please* contact us before 15 September 2020". Your email doesn't say "if you don't tell us before 15th September, you will be excluded from the TF". And even something like that, will be surprising to me, but could be acceptable. If you have 25 volunteers, I will understand that, but if you have 4 members, it doesn't make any sense. For whatever reasons I only followed that later on, when preparing for the RIPE81, but as said your email is not excluding anyone to participate *after* any date. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 26/3/21 13:38, "ripe-list en nombre de Mirjam Kuehne" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de mir@zu-hause.nl> escribió: Dear all, Just to clarify the process we used to form the CoC TF: During the plenary at RIPE 81 and in an email I sent to the ripe-list on 8 September 2020 I asked for volunteers. Before the deadline specified in that email, four volunteers stepped forward. Together with two RIPE NCC support staff, the TF was formed and was announced to the ripe-list on 23 September 2020. On 25 October 2020 Jordi contacted the TF and asked to be added. Please find more details in the timeline below for reference. The TF mail archives are public and all meetings are minuted and published on the TF mailing list (linked from the TF page: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/tf/code-of-conduct-task-force). Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ====== 08 Sep 2020: Open call for volunteers to serve on TF, transparently setting deadline https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2020-September/001959.html 15 Sep 2020: Deadline for volunteers to come forward 17 Sep 20020: RIPE Chair thanks the four volunteers and charges them to set about their work 18 Sep 2020: Code of Conduct Task Force sets to work https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-September/000000.html 23 Sep 2020: Announcing CoC TF to ripe-list https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-October/000066.html 25 Oct 2020: Request received to join TF https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-October/000066.html 06 Nov 2020: TF meets and considers latecomer's request 09 Nov 2020: TF Chair advises latecomer that TF is not empowered to expand its membership, explains the arrangements to be made for transparency, and encourages latecomer to contribute to the work of the TF by posting to the TF mailing list. https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/coc-tf/2020-November/000080.html ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
participants (3)
-
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ -
Leo Vegoda -
Mirjam Kuehne