Hosting RIPE85 in Serbia that is trying to cancel EuroPride 2022
Hi, It appears that the Serbian president is currently attempting to cancel the EuroPride 2022 event that the Serbian PM earlier committed to fully support[1]. I feel like hosting RIPE meetings in countries that would try to cancel pride events, seemingly at least in part because of anti-LGBTQ+ protesters is not great if we want to increase diversity and inclusivity. Sure, it is a lot better than when it was decided to host one in the UAE a few years ago but that is a pretty low bar. To further increase diversity and inclusion, I think it would make sense to require that the RIPE meetings are only hosted in cities/countries that support LGBTQ+ rights. While not the entire reason, it being hosted in Serbia was part of my decision to not attend RIPE85. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62700240 -Cynthia
For large events like RIPE, contracts have to be signed 1.5-3 years in advance, and the Serbian announcement was just today. Unfortunately, large events can't adjust locations that quickly On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 1:17 PM Cynthia Revström <me@cynthia.re> wrote:
Hi,
It appears that the Serbian president is currently attempting to cancel the EuroPride 2022 event that the Serbian PM earlier committed to fully support[1].
I feel like hosting RIPE meetings in countries that would try to cancel pride events, seemingly at least in part because of anti-LGBTQ+ protesters is not great if we want to increase diversity and inclusivity.
Sure, it is a lot better than when it was decided to host one in the UAE a few years ago but that is a pretty low bar.
To further increase diversity and inclusion, I think it would make sense to require that the RIPE meetings are only hosted in cities/countries that support LGBTQ+ rights.
While not the entire reason, it being hosted in Serbia was part of my decision to not attend RIPE85.
[1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62700240
-Cynthia
_______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity
Thank you, Cynthia, Leslie, all. We could consider a diversity workshop at RIPE85. Make a real splash. Haven't considered deadlines yet. I have experienced last minute deadline ditching when it's something that the organisers want. Can do? As a DE & I speaker/advisor who also happens to be LGBTQ+ I'd be happy to speak and present, with group buy-in, consensus that Diversity is important to implement for real. I'm thinking of an interactive workshop with a bit of improv theatre. Something different than the usual lectures... interesting though they be, it's death by powerpoint after 2 days. Regarding Serbia: Indeed, the sabre rattling of a politician to gain the support of reactionary groups is nothing new in any countruy including NL. It would be good to get the participation of the local LGBTQ+ community, which is something that a good conference should do. Met vriendelijke groet, Karla Verzonden door ProtonMail Secure Email. ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, August 28th, 2022 at 06:01, Leslie <geekgirl@gmail.com> wrote:
For large events like RIPE, contracts have to be signed 1.5-3 years in advance, and the Serbian announcement was just today. Unfortunately, large events can't adjust locations that quickly
On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 1:17 PM Cynthia Revström me@cynthia.re wrote:
Hi,
It appears that the Serbian president is currently attempting to cancel the EuroPride 2022 event that the Serbian PM earlier committed to fully support1.
I feel like hosting RIPE meetings in countries that would try to cancel pride events, seemingly at least in part because of anti-LGBTQ+ protesters is not great if we want to increase diversity and inclusivity.
Sure, it is a lot better than when it was decided to host one in the UAE a few years ago but that is a pretty low bar.
To further increase diversity and inclusion, I think it would make sense to require that the RIPE meetings are only hosted in cities/countries that support LGBTQ+ rights.
While not the entire reason, it being hosted in Serbia was part of my decision to not attend RIPE85.
-Cynthia
_______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity
_______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity
I too have mixed feelings about the RIPE85 location, even before this latest development. On the one hand, my (non-first hand) impression of the host country is that taking my Whole Self to Belgrade may not be completely safe from a personal point of view [*]. On the other, the EuroPride situation demonstrates that representation, and support of/engagement with the local LGBTQ+ community is important. And not least visibly demonstrating the extent to which the RIPE community can be inclusive. So for now, on balance, I'll be there, not least to fulfill $dayjob mission, but not without thoughts of those who feel they can't. Kei [*] are there any sources of pointers/advice/resources on this for non-binary visitors ?
I've always fought for my principles and never yielded. Being one's authentic self can sometimes have real costs, like job rejection. And I've experienced a lot of discrimination, bullying and even physical violence on a few occasions (in NL, not in Eastern Europe), but I'd change nothing. These are my experiences. There is no "safe". I'd rather find ways to promote diversity and inclusion, to make the world a better place for new generations. Cheers, Karla
Our community has to be inclusive in *all* respects. This includes (pun intended) holding our meetings in as many parts of our region as we can, including (pun intended again) places where many of us do not agree with the local politics of the government or even the opinions held by the majority of the population. We should not exclude the RIPE community of Serbia or the SEE area even from holding our meetings there because of local politics. Daniel who has supported the networking communities in our region for decades, despite his disagreements with local politics and the difficulties those politics have caused.
Daniel, On 29/08/2022 12.43, Daniel Karrenberg wrote:
Our community has to be inclusive in *all* respects.
Does it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Cheers, -- Shane
On Aug 29, 2022, at 08:14, Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> wrote: On 29/08/2022 12.43, Daniel Karrenberg wrote:
Our community has to be inclusive in *all* respects.
Does it?
That's interesting, Shane, if a shade theoretical! I think there's a more practical problem here when it comes to choosing in-person meeting venues, though. There is no utopian paradise which is safe for all; there are real and recent examples why particular individuals might not feel safe meeting in the Netherlands or Germany or France, for example (list of all countries abridged for clarity and random examples selected for illustration). This is fundamentally a problem with society, or perhaps humanity and not just the NCC or RIPE. The only way we can probably hope to level the playing field here is never to meet in person and only to meet online using tools that place the fewest demands on local connectivity possible. This means we're likely all meeting using irc until further notice. If the community wants to meet in person despite the potential danger to specific, important groups, then some degree of compromise will continue to be necessary. [let me confirm for clarity at this point that I am a strong ally of 2SLGBTIA+ people in a very personal sense and I take the safety of that particular group very seriously.] If we cannot meet in-person in a way that doesn't cause harm to anybody, we could recast the diversity requirements for venue selection in terms of disadvantaging different groups each time we meet rather than the same group every time. That might actually work out to be an argument in favour of meeting in a place that is more hostile to one group from time to time, so long as the place is less hostile to another. There should be limits, however, and of course I agree we should not knowingly place people in harms way. I do not know whether that is the situation in Serbia. As an aside, I currently live in a place where pride flags were recently torn down by angry strangers from private houses and burnt, and where elected, municipal officials in a nearby town have gone on record in council meetings to argue against the idea of rainbow crosswalks being painted on streets on the grounds that rainbows were mentioned in the bible's flood story and should therefore not be associated with those who have chosen "unnatural lifestyles". I live in Canada. Reality on the ground in any particular place does not always reflect its legislation or marketing. Joe
Hi Shane, Let‘s dive into the philosophical and sociological discourse just for the fun of it. Those only interested in the question at hand might want to move on … . Strictly speaking I take your point that I should not have said “all aspects” but something like “also other aspects important to us besides this particular one”. My intention was to make a point as pointedly as I could (pun intended) and not start a philosophical discussion. More importantly I did not speak about tolerance but about inclusiveness. So I feel Popper’s paradox does not really apply. There is a plethora of recent work on the distinction, so this is left as an exercise. Do not expect to find consensus on the definitions though. On tolerance I advise to not stop at Popper’s contributions. Particularly Habermas has some useful thoughts here and his arguments are stringent enough to appeal to nerds like us; also his thoughts are more useful to apply in practice, at least for me personally, definitely at a younger age when I read him. Do not get distracted by Habermas often talking about tolerance in the religious context, the work is in fact more general than that. And here again there are two white men, one of them old, discussing the work of other white men. I should read more recent and diverse authors, yet I lack the energy; maybe next month. ;-) Best Daniel --- Sent from a handheld device.
On 29. Aug 2022, at 14:14, Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> wrote:
Daniel,
On 29/08/2022 12.43, Daniel Karrenberg wrote: Our community has to be inclusive in *all* respects.
Does it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Cheers,
-- Shane
_______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity
[*] are there any sources of pointers/advice/resources on this for non-binary visitors ?
Here are some pointers: https://wanderingourworld.com/is-belgrade-safe-tips-on-how-to-avoid-trouble/ https://theculturetrip.com/europe/serbia/articles/whats-it-like-to-be-lgbt-i... https://www.lgbti-era.org/content/serbia Vesna
Thank You ! On 8/29/22 07:49, Vesna Manojlovic wrote:
[*] are there any sources of pointers/advice/resources on this for non-binary visitors ?
Here are some pointers:
https://wanderingourworld.com/is-belgrade-safe-tips-on-how-to-avoid-trouble/
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/serbia/articles/whats-it-like-to-be-lgbt-i...
Hi list, Seeing and contributed to increased LGBTQ+ representation during the last RIPE meetings I too have mixed feelings about hosting the event in locations that are hostile towards LGBTQ+ folx. They might feel not safe traveling in person to these meetings, though the meeting venue itself might be safe enough. Yeah, the hybrid meeting setup might alleviate such concerns, but it also feels like a compromise one does not like to make. I don’t know. Best Regards, Ruben
Hi Ruben, et al.,
Seeing and contributed to increased LGBTQ+ representation during the last RIPE meetings I too have mixed feelings about hosting the event in locations that are hostile towards LGBTQ+ folx.
They might feel not safe traveling in person to these meetings, though the meeting venue itself might be safe enough.
Yeah, the hybrid meeting setup might alleviate such concerns, but it also feels like a compromise one does not like to make. I don’t know.
I agree. Telling people that would potentially be unsafe in such a location to move their attendance online feels horrible. I wouldn't want to do that. The in-person meetings should welcome everybody and not force them to make those weird compromises. If we want to offer an open meeting, we need to pick the location accordingly. Cheers Sascha
I agree with Sascha, the online meetings are fine for just watching the talks but you don't really get the social aspect which is a big part of it. I know this might cause some issues as it could essentially mean that we might only be able to have meetings in northern, western, and parts of central europe for the most part. Personally I think it is more important that everyone feels like they are able to go to the event without feeling unsafe rather than having it in many different parts of the region. Though of course I am biased here as I am LGBTQ+ and live in Northern Europe. -Cynthia On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 4:46 PM Sascha Pollok <sp@iphh.net> wrote:
Hi Ruben, et al.,
Seeing and contributed to increased LGBTQ+ representation during the last RIPE meetings I too have mixed feelings about hosting the event in locations that are hostile towards LGBTQ+ folx.
They might feel not safe traveling in person to these meetings, though the meeting venue itself might be safe enough.
Yeah, the hybrid meeting setup might alleviate such concerns, but it also feels like a compromise one does not like to make. I don’t know.
I agree. Telling people that would potentially be unsafe in such a location to move their attendance online feels horrible. I wouldn't want to do that. The in-person meetings should welcome everybody and not force them to make those weird compromises.
If we want to offer an open meeting, we need to pick the location accordingly.
Cheers Sascha
_______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity
Hi Sascha, I do feel triggered with this call for a certain "openness", I hope you take this reply in a best possible way! On 28/08/2022 16:45, Sascha Pollok wrote:
The in-person meetings should welcome everybody and not force them to make those weird compromises.
...
If we want to offer an open meeting, we need to pick the location accordingly.
Theoretically, I agree with you -- but -- some of the locations that are considered "open" are only so to certain groups of people... (e.g. Germany, Holland, Scandinavia... UK!?) ... and there are still many many people for whom these countries are NOT open; people who are disadvantaged by _other_ circumstances: - people who can not afford to travel to North/West Europe, since the hotels & food are too expensive for them & - people from "wrong" countries who can not get a visa ... so if we would host meetings only in those countries, RIPE would be missing out on many contributions. It is a difficult challenge to offer equal opportunities for wide variety of particpation... and I am glad that we are now considering many of the aspects; I am hoping this will lead to better events, and more justice in the world! Vesna
Vesna, Why not create a table of RIPE countries similar to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#Central_Eu... and populate it with openness details, visa issues, pricing so that in the future we have a bank of cities that enter the magic quadrant of possible hosting candidates? Regards, Hank -----Original Message----- From: diversity [mailto:diversity-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Vesna Manojlovic Sent: 29 August 2022 16:28 To: Sascha Pollok <sp@iphh.net>; diversity@ripe.net Subject: Re: [diversity] Hosting RIPE85 in Serbia that is trying to cancel EuroPride 2022 Hi Sascha, I do feel triggered with this call for a certain "openness", I hope you take this reply in a best possible way! On 28/08/2022 16:45, Sascha Pollok wrote:
The in-person meetings should welcome everybody and not force them to make those weird compromises.
...
If we want to offer an open meeting, we need to pick the location accordingly.
Theoretically, I agree with you -- but -- some of the locations that are considered "open" are only so to certain groups of people... (e.g. Germany, Holland, Scandinavia... UK!?) ... and there are still many many people for whom these countries are NOT open; people who are disadvantaged by _other_ circumstances: - people who can not afford to travel to North/West Europe, since the hotels & food are too expensive for them & - people from "wrong" countries who can not get a visa ... so if we would host meetings only in those countries, RIPE would be missing out on many contributions. It is a difficult challenge to offer equal opportunities for wide variety of particpation... and I am glad that we are now considering many of the aspects; I am hoping this will lead to better events, and more justice in the world! Vesna _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe...
Hi Vesna, I agree with you here and we will probably have to kinda balance the pros and cons to various groups. There are some countries which imo we should absolutely not host RIPE meetings in, such as those without a functioning democracy and those with governments that are actively hostile towards LGBTQ+ people. Serbia is kinda on the edge here, but is certainly far from the worst and might be acceptable. One thing that stands out to me though is that from looking at the attendee list, at the time of writing this, not a single person from Serbia has registered so far it seems.[1] (as in where the country is "RS") If we can't get a single person from Serbia to register for a RIPE meeting in Serbia then I feel like the downsides of hosting it in Serbia outweigh the benefits as a lot of the benefits go away in my opinion. Of course we didn't know this before scheduling it in Serbia but it still makes me think that we should possibly reconsider the pros and cons a bit better for the future. Creating a list like Hank suggested might be a good idea to try to evaluate the best options for future meetings. Also given how I think a lot of people are paid by their employers to attend and how any location is likely going to be semi-expensive for people who don't live there, I feel like the economic parts should have much less weight than the other factors. People not being able to travel because it costs money is sad, but people not being able to travel because they feel unsafe or blocked from entering due to being LGBTQ+ or just being the "wrong" nationality is way worse imo. The summary of my take is: We should consider all of these factors but we need to figure out how important they are, and also figure out where the red lines are. (as in what the total deal breakers are that simply can't be accepted regardless of whatever pros there are in other ways) [1]: https://ripe85.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/ -Cynthia On Mon, 29 Aug 2022, 15:28 Vesna Manojlovic, <BECHA@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi Sascha,
I do feel triggered with this call for a certain "openness", I hope you take this reply in a best possible way!
On 28/08/2022 16:45, Sascha Pollok wrote:
The in-person meetings should welcome everybody and not force them to make those weird compromises.
...
If we want to offer an open meeting, we need to pick the location accordingly.
Theoretically, I agree with you -- but -- some of the locations that are considered "open" are only so to certain groups of people...
(e.g. Germany, Holland, Scandinavia... UK!?)
... and there are still many many people for whom these countries are NOT open; people who are disadvantaged by _other_ circumstances:
- people who can not afford to travel to North/West Europe, since the hotels & food are too expensive for them
&
- people from "wrong" countries who can not get a visa
... so if we would host meetings only in those countries, RIPE would be missing out on many contributions.
It is a difficult challenge to offer equal opportunities for wide variety of particpation... and I am glad that we are now considering many of the aspects; I am hoping this will lead to better events, and more justice in the world!
Vesna
_______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity
Hi, On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 8:34 AM Cynthia Revström <me@cynthia.re> wrote:
Also given how I think a lot of people are paid by their employers to attend and how any location is likely going to be semi-expensive for people who don't live there, I feel like the economic parts should have much less weight than the other factors.
Please do not discount the impact of pricing on diversity. Travel costs are managed in most kinds of organizations. And people working in smaller organisations are likely to have less flexibility over discretionary spending. Higher costs reduce the pool of people who can attend and/or the frequency with which they can attend. The cost of attending is a particular problem for people earlier in their careers. Kind regards, Leo
Hi Leo, I am not trying to say that it doesn't matter and in fact it does matter to me personally as I don't have an employer who can pay for me to go to RIPE meetings. My point was more that I personally feel like that it shouldn't factor in more heavily than more outright hostility against LGBTQ+ people and such. -Cynthia On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 6:09 PM Leo Vegoda <leo@vegoda.org> wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 8:34 AM Cynthia Revström <me@cynthia.re> wrote:
Also given how I think a lot of people are paid by their employers to attend and how any location is likely going to be semi-expensive for people who don't live there, I feel like the economic parts should have much less weight than the other factors.
Please do not discount the impact of pricing on diversity.
Travel costs are managed in most kinds of organizations. And people working in smaller organisations are likely to have less flexibility over discretionary spending.
Higher costs reduce the pool of people who can attend and/or the frequency with which they can attend.
The cost of attending is a particular problem for people earlier in their careers.
Kind regards,
Leo
Hi Cynthia, On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 2:40 PM Cynthia Revström <me@cynthia.re> wrote: [...]
My point was more that I personally feel like that it shouldn't factor in more heavily than more outright hostility against LGBTQ+ people and such.
I agree that concerns for physical safety are the most important. But we need to balance multiple factors and the amount of money it costs to attend is definitely an important factor in enabling diversity. Kind regards, Leo
Totally agree with you! Personally there was no way I could have afforded to stay at the hotel that hosted RIPE84. (luckily there was a much less expensive one a few hundred meters away that I could stay at in that case) -Cynthia On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, 00:26 Leo Vegoda, <leo@vegoda.org> wrote:
Hi Cynthia,
On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 2:40 PM Cynthia Revström <me@cynthia.re> wrote:
[...]
My point was more that I personally feel like that it shouldn't factor in more heavily than more outright hostility against LGBTQ+ people and such.
I agree that concerns for physical safety are the most important.
But we need to balance multiple factors and the amount of money it costs to attend is definitely an important factor in enabling diversity.
Kind regards,
Leo
In today's article, I have addressed some of these questions:
On the topic of safety at RIPE Meetings, valid concerns have been raised about the acceptance of LGBTQ* community in Serbia. For international visitors, here are some pointers for additional travel safety, and here's a useful blogpost on the personal experiences of a blogger who visited Serbia four years ago.
For the local community, the RIPE community strives to contribute by being role models, educators, and allies. We are also looking for more ways to enhance the contributions of the local communities to RIPE, so please let us know what we can do together.
One last important thing I would like to add is how grateful we are for the support from the local hosts for RIPE 85 - RNIDS and SOX. The local community's enthusiasm makes RIPE Meetings possible. And remember, if you would like to see future RIPE Meetings to happen in your city/country/region, do look out for the call for hosts and send us your proposals.
https://labs.ripe.net/author/becha/building-bridges-between-diverse-communit... Regards, Vesna
Perhaps RIPE or someone with good data analytical skills can crunch the numbers from previous meetings: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/archive First mark which venues are considered low-cost, moderate and expensive (3 categories). https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings_current.jsp?region=150 Next, determine how many people attended and again mark it is low, moderate and high to determine which venue attracted the most people: https://ripe78.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/ https://ripe84.ripe.net/attendee-list/ https://ripe79.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/ https://ripe77.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/ etc... Lastly, use sites like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#Central_Eu... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe#Eastern_and_Central_Eur... along with other factors like visa availability to determine countries that can be considered good/moderate/bad in the realm of inclusiveness. Now assign weights to each of the 3 categories and we can then come up with a list of venues that are better suited than others. Regards, Hank From: diversity [mailto:diversity-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Cynthia Revström Sent: 30 August 2022 18:34 To: Vesna Manojlovic <BECHA@ripe.net> Cc: diversity@ripe.net Subject: Re: [diversity] Hosting RIPE85 in Serbia that is trying to cancel EuroPride 2022 Hi Vesna, I agree with you here and we will probably have to kinda balance the pros and cons to various groups. There are some countries which imo we should absolutely not host RIPE meetings in, such as those without a functioning democracy and those with governments that are actively hostile towards LGBTQ+ people. Serbia is kinda on the edge here, but is certainly far from the worst and might be acceptable. One thing that stands out to me though is that from looking at the attendee list, at the time of writing this, not a single person from Serbia has registered so far it seems.[1] (as in where the country is "RS") If we can't get a single person from Serbia to register for a RIPE meeting in Serbia then I feel like the downsides of hosting it in Serbia outweigh the benefits as a lot of the benefits go away in my opinion. Of course we didn't know this before scheduling it in Serbia but it still makes me think that we should possibly reconsider the pros and cons a bit better for the future. Creating a list like Hank suggested might be a good idea to try to evaluate the best options for future meetings. Also given how I think a lot of people are paid by their employers to attend and how any location is likely going to be semi-expensive for people who don't live there, I feel like the economic parts should have much less weight than the other factors. People not being able to travel because it costs money is sad, but people not being able to travel because they feel unsafe or blocked from entering due to being LGBTQ+ or just being the "wrong" nationality is way worse imo. The summary of my take is: We should consider all of these factors but we need to figure out how important they are, and also figure out where the red lines are. (as in what the total deal breakers are that simply can't be accepted regardless of whatever pros there are in other ways) [1]: https://ripe85.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fripe85.ripe.net%2Fattend%2Fattendee-list%2F&data=05%7C01%7Chank%40mail.iucc.ac.il%7Cb3c32c5829ea407d49df08da8a9d1f87%7C5157b0be66864470892cbf98e43728a4%7C1%7C1%7C637975167127346341%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C5000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4WgSEKzftKAoRcDcjvaBuOVGudlziBBlW2J3wz%2FVA6A%3D&reserved=0> -Cynthia On Mon, 29 Aug 2022, 15:28 Vesna Manojlovic, <BECHA@ripe.net<mailto:BECHA@ripe.net>> wrote: Hi Sascha, I do feel triggered with this call for a certain "openness", I hope you take this reply in a best possible way! On 28/08/2022 16:45, Sascha Pollok wrote:
The in-person meetings should welcome everybody and not force them to make those weird compromises.
...
If we want to offer an open meeting, we need to pick the location accordingly.
Theoretically, I agree with you -- but -- some of the locations that are considered "open" are only so to certain groups of people... (e.g. Germany, Holland, Scandinavia... UK!?) ... and there are still many many people for whom these countries are NOT open; people who are disadvantaged by _other_ circumstances: - people who can not afford to travel to North/West Europe, since the hotels & food are too expensive for them & - people from "wrong" countries who can not get a visa ... so if we would host meetings only in those countries, RIPE would be missing out on many contributions. It is a difficult challenge to offer equal opportunities for wide variety of particpation... and I am glad that we are now considering many of the aspects; I am hoping this will lead to better events, and more justice in the world! Vesna _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net<mailto:diversity@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdiversity&data=05%7C01%7Chank%40mail.iucc.ac.il%7Cb3c32c5829ea407d49df08da8a9d1f87%7C5157b0be66864470892cbf98e43728a4%7C1%7C1%7C637975167127502700%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C5000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=genKKvwWtYGvRdE3YDgE0StKfIQLiHSzCHuQMT8SLYc%3D&reserved=0>
Hank, good suggestions! I'd like to add an aspect of environmental costs / sustainability criteria; here are example from similar communities: IETF: https://www.ietf.org/blog/towards-a-net-zero-ietf/ ACM SIGPLAN: https://www.sigplan.org/Resources/Climate/ Mozilla Community: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Projects/Sustainability/Research On 31/08/2022 06:58, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
Perhaps RIPE or someone with good data analytical skills can crunch the numbers from previous meetings:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/archive <https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/archive>
First mark which venues are considered low-cost, moderate and expensive (3 categories).
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings_current.jsp?region=150 <https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings_current.jsp?region=150>
Next, determine how many people attended and again mark it is low, moderate and high to determine which venue attracted the most people:
https://ripe78.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/ <https://ripe78.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/>
https://ripe84.ripe.net/attendee-list/ <https://ripe84.ripe.net/attendee-list/>
https://ripe79.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/ <https://ripe79.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/>
https://ripe77.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/ <https://ripe77.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/>
etc…
Lastly, use sites like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#Central_Eu... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#Central_Europe>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe#Eastern_and_Central_Eur... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe#Eastern_and_Central_Europe>
along with other factors like visa availability to determine countries that can be considered good/moderate/bad in the realm of inclusiveness.
Now assign weights to each of the 3 categories and we can then come up with a list of venues that are better suited than others.
Regards,
Hank
*From:*diversity [mailto:diversity-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Cynthia Revström *Sent:* 30 August 2022 18:34 *To:* Vesna Manojlovic <BECHA@ripe.net> *Cc:* diversity@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [diversity] Hosting RIPE85 in Serbia that is trying to cancel EuroPride 2022
Hi Vesna,
I agree with you here and we will probably have to kinda balance the pros and cons to various groups.
There are some countries which imo we should absolutely not host RIPE meetings in, such as those without a functioning democracy and those with governments that are actively hostile towards LGBTQ+ people.
Serbia is kinda on the edge here, but is certainly far from the worst and might be acceptable.
One thing that stands out to me though is that from looking at the attendee list, at the time of writing this, not a single person from Serbia has registered so far it seems.[1] (as in where the country is "RS")
If we can't get a single person from Serbia to register for a RIPE meeting in Serbia then I feel like the downsides of hosting it in Serbia outweigh the benefits as a lot of the benefits go away in my opinion.
Of course we didn't know this before scheduling it in Serbia but it still makes me think that we should possibly reconsider the pros and cons a bit better for the future.
Creating a list like Hank suggested might be a good idea to try to evaluate the best options for future meetings.
Also given how I think a lot of people are paid by their employers to attend and how any location is likely going to be semi-expensive for people who don't live there, I feel like the economic parts should have much less weight than the other factors.
People not being able to travel because it costs money is sad, but people not being able to travel because they feel unsafe or blocked from entering due to being LGBTQ+ or just being the "wrong" nationality is way worse imo.
The summary of my take is: We should consider all of these factors but we need to figure out how important they are, and also figure out where the red lines are. (as in what the total deal breakers are that simply can't be accepted regardless of whatever pros there are in other ways)
[1]: https://ripe85.ripe.net/attend/attendee-list/ <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fripe85.ripe.net%2Fattend%2Fattendee-list%2F&data=05%7C01%7Chank%40mail.iucc.ac.il%7Cb3c32c5829ea407d49df08da8a9d1f87%7C5157b0be66864470892cbf98e43728a4%7C1%7C1%7C637975167127346341%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C5000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4WgSEKzftKAoRcDcjvaBuOVGudlziBBlW2J3wz%2FVA6A%3D&reserved=0>
-Cynthia
On Mon, 29 Aug 2022, 15:28 Vesna Manojlovic, <BECHA@ripe.net <mailto:BECHA@ripe.net>> wrote:
Hi Sascha,
I do feel triggered with this call for a certain "openness", I hope you take this reply in a best possible way!
On 28/08/2022 16:45, Sascha Pollok wrote: > The in-person meetings should welcome everybody and not > force them to make those weird compromises.
...
> If we want to offer an open meeting, we need to pick the location > accordingly.
Theoretically, I agree with you -- but -- some of the locations that are considered "open" are only so to certain groups of people...
(e.g. Germany, Holland, Scandinavia... UK!?)
... and there are still many many people for whom these countries are NOT open; people who are disadvantaged by _other_ circumstances:
- people who can not afford to travel to North/West Europe, since the hotels & food are too expensive for them
&
- people from "wrong" countries who can not get a visa
... so if we would host meetings only in those countries, RIPE would be missing out on many contributions.
It is a difficult challenge to offer equal opportunities for wide variety of particpation... and I am glad that we are now considering many of the aspects; I am hoping this will lead to better events, and more justice in the world!
Vesna
_______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ripe.net <mailto:diversity@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdiversity&data=05%7C01%7Chank%40mail.iucc.ac.il%7Cb3c32c5829ea407d49df08da8a9d1f87%7C5157b0be66864470892cbf98e43728a4%7C1%7C1%7C637975167127502700%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C5000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=genKKvwWtYGvRdE3YDgE0StKfIQLiHSzCHuQMT8SLYc%3D&reserved=0>
-- Community Builder, RIPE NCC Working times: Monday-Thursday 10-16 CEST https://labs.ripe.net/author/becha/
Hi Vesna, sorry - I was a bit busy here that's why I am only now replying to your e-mail from three days ago.
I do feel triggered with this call for a certain "openness", I hope you take this reply in a best possible way!
I totally do! [...]
Theoretically, I agree with you -- but -- some of the locations that are considered "open" are only so to certain groups of people...
(e.g. Germany, Holland, Scandinavia... UK!?)
Yes. I agree that it is always a compromise and a safe place for one, might be an insecure place for someone else. This turns more into a general discussion now (which is good) but also when looking at this particular case I would consider the upcoming RIPE meeting in Belgrad not necessarily "risky" for the LGBTQ+ community - but I don't consider myself qualified enough to judge. IIRC the government's opinion on this was basically "we have bigger issues going on and would therefore like to postpone the pride event" which is disappointing but not a type of attitude we have heard from other governments. [...]
It is a difficult challenge to offer equal opportunities for wide variety of particpation... and I am glad that we are now considering many of the aspects; I am hoping this will lead to better events, and more justice in the world!
This is a good discussion and I am glad it came up and where it is going with very good suggestions today (e.g. from Hank). So let's keep the discussion alive and we all will learn from it. Thank you all Sascha
Hi, as I am originally from Belgrade, I feel personally compelled to reply; however, I am also working for NCC who is organising the event, so I have multiple hats here.... On 27/08/2022 22:17, Cynthia Revström wrote:
Hi,
It appears that the Serbian president is currently attempting to cancel the EuroPride 2022 event that the Serbian PM earlier committed to fully support[1].
This is indeed unfortunate, worrying & even scary. Feeling safe, physically and emotionally, is a basic requirement for attendees, and as event orgnaisers we are trying to achieve that... ... however, this has to be balanced with another goal we have as a facilitator for community engagement, and that is: meeting people where they are -- and in this case, it is "Eastern Europe". As you, Cynthia, mention on one of your later messages, we can not limit ourselves to only supporting (relatively) safe(r) / progressive parts of the world... ... since bringin RIPE meeting closer to the local community DOES give them support, by offering role models, making it financially easier for local community to attend, and possible to travel without visas (to give just a few examples).
I feel like hosting RIPE meetings in countries that would try to cancel pride events, seemingly at least in part because of anti-LGBTQ+ protesters is not great if we want to increase diversity and inclusivity.
I agree that _this_ part of inclusivity criteria is now under threat -- and I wonder: what can we do to make it safer? OTOH, as an ex-local, I would LOVE it for our event to be *helpful* and supportive to the local community!! I have been taking parts in the struggles of local LGBTQ community for rights, recognition, acceptance & safety ~30 years ago... and now I am in the position to contribute more & better -- so please, let's think together: what can we do to support & engage with local community? (I will connect with my old/local contacts & work on this...)
Sure, it is a lot better than when it was decided to host one in the UAE a few years ago but that is a pretty low bar.
To further increase diversity and inclusion, I think it would make sense to require that the RIPE meetings are only hosted in cities/countries that support LGBTQ+ rights.
I see a difference between a country that has oppressive _legal_ system, and a country that has parts of general population with hostile attitudes... Serbia's formal, legal position is not "the worst" in Europe (23/49) ; the sentiments are a different story, and, personally, a very sad one :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Serbia
While not the entire reason, it being hosted in Serbia was part of my decision to not attend RIPE85.
I'll miss you there... Vesna -- Senior Community Builder, RIPE NCC Working times: Monday-Thursday 10-16 CEST https://labs.ripe.net/author/becha/
participants (14)
-
Cynthia Revström -
Daniel Karrenberg -
Daniel Karrenberg -
Hank Nussbacher -
Joe Abley -
Karla Wagner -
Keith Mitchell -
Leo Vegoda -
Leslie -
Ruben van Staveren -
Sascha E. Pollok -
Sascha Pollok
-
Shane Kerr -
Vesna Manojlovic