- diversity - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [diversity] Impact analisys of the new Code of Conduct (Sasha Romijn)
by Antony Gollan 17 Jan '20

17 Jan '20

Dear Sasha, (Replying on Athina's behalf, as she is out of the office today.) We have just about finished our analysis, though with the Christmas break next week it will likely be early in the new year that we are ready to publish. Apologies for the delay - this has been an exceptionally busy period in the office. We hope you can bear with us just a little longer. Regards Antony

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Report about N² Women event on RIPE Labs
by Mirjam Kuehne 20 Dec '19

20 Dec '19

Hi, Martine Sophie Lenders published an article on RIPE Labs describing her experiences organising a Networking Networking Women (N² Women) event: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/martine_sophie_lenders/networking-networking-… Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE NCC

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Fwd: Impact analisys of the new Code of Conduct
by Athina Fragkouli 16 Dec '19

16 Dec '19

Dear Hans Petter, Thank you for the request. The RIPE NCC will do a full Impact Analysis of the version 3.0 CoC including a full legal review. We expect to complete this in the coming 3-4 weeks. Comments and input on the version 2.0 were given internally in an effort to explain certain legal aspects of the draft, but this will be the first full impact analysis. To avoid us needing to do an impact analysis on a newer version, we would ask that further input and comments are incorporated into the 3.0 version after we conduct the impact analysis. This might make things easier for us and for the Task Force. Kind regards, Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: [diversity] Fwd: Impact analisys of the new Code of Conduct > Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 00:32:00 +0200 > From: Hans Petter Holen <hph(a)oslo.net> > Reply-To: hph(a)oslo.net > To: diversity(a)ripe.net <diversity(a)ripe.net> > > > > I have requested an impact analisys from the RIPE NCC as requested by > the task force. > > -hph > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: *Hans Petter Holen* <hph(a)oslo.net <mailto:hph@oslo.net>> > Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 00:31 > Subject: Impact analisys of the new Code of Conduct > To: rna-exec(a)ripe.net <mailto:rna-exec@ripe.net> Mailing List > <rna-exec(a)ripe.net <mailto:rna-exec@ripe.net>> > Cc: Athina Fragkouli <athina.fragkouli(a)ripe.net > <mailto:athina.fragkouli@ripe.net>> > > > > The diversity task force has published a draft of a new code of conduct > (CoC). Before moving this forward I would like to request an impact > assesment from the RIPE NCC for the community to understand if there is > an impact on the RIPE NCC and if this impact can be accepted. > > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/ripe-meeting-code-o… > > For the record, I would also like to point out that there is an existing > code of conduct in place: > > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/ripe-meeting-code-o… > > The new code of conduct does however specify how the Trusted Contacts > (now Code of Conduct team) is appointed and outlines in more details > what actions can be taken. > > It can be argued that all theese actions can be taken allready, by the > Trusted Contacts, RIPE Chair, PC and RIPE NCC meeting organisers today, > but the new CoC makes this explicit. > > Yours sincerely, > Hans Petter Holen > RIPE Chair > > > > -- > -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph(a)oslo.net > <mailto:hph@oslo.net> | http://hph.oslo.net > -- > -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph(a)oslo.net > <mailto:hph@oslo.net> | http://hph.oslo.net

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Towards a more inclusive community
by Job Snijders 22 Nov '19

22 Nov '19

Dear all, I've been observing various efforts towards constructing a safe and inclusive environment both at RIPE meetings and our online platforms. I appreciate these efforts, however, I have some concerns with the process and our ability to execute. A careful observer may see that the next generation of Internet engineers is not quite like the current establishment. I believe this diversity needs to be acknowledged in our policies. We owe it to them to create an environment that contributes to their comfort and well being. I recorded some thoughts on my way to RIPE - https://youtu.be/6_dLgcfv8kU Kind regards, Job

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Re: [diversity] [address-policy-wg] cultural idioms in RIPE discussions
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 01 Nov '19

01 Nov '19

Diversity? (in copy) El 1/11/19 13:50, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <address-policy-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net en nombre de brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie> escribió: I'm sure it will shock absolutely nobody if I say that I think this conversation is very important. Maybe AP-WG isn't the best place, but I'm not sure where is? I think it is useful to all of us to realise that our cultural references are not everyone else's, because of language or country or age or one of many other things. We can no longer just assume a shared set of references and we should look to inform (and hopefully share the awesomeness that is Monthy Python, for instance) and expand. I mean, how long will it be before WG Chairs start to talk about yeeting proposals into or out of WGs? 😊 I'm not, for one second, suggesting people shouldn't use references, I use them all the time, but I am saying that those who use them should be understanding when others don't get them. Thanks, Brian Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > -----Original Message----- > From: address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf > Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg > Sent: Friday 1 November 2019 12:38 > To: Jim Reid <jim(a)rfc1035.com> > Cc: RIPE Address Policy WG List <address-policy-wg(a)ripe.net> > Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] cultural idioms in RIPE discussions > > Hi Jim, > > Despite how many years I've been participating, I still have (sometimes) > difficulties, and often talking with other non-native English speakers they tell > me the same. We know that not everybody is happy to express that in a list. > > I'm not convinced "common-sense" is such simple thing! Otherwise, either > I'm really stupid, or I should have cached the reference in a more humoristic > way. > > I don't think we can compare our technical jargon with such kind of > references, especially because not everybody (as it is my case) follows > "Monty Python, Star Wars, Star Trek, H2G2, etc.". Precisely because I often > heard those references, I decided today, to ask for a clarification! I've missed > a lot of fun, I guess! > > I didn't respond to the first email because, sometimes, when a thread is > moving fast in the list, you just respond to the last email that you read. Not > sure if that's a broken way, but I do sometimes. > > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet > > > > El 1/11/19 13:27, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Jim Reid" <address- > policy-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net en nombre de jim(a)rfc1035.com> escribió: > > > > > On 1 Nov 2019, at 11:14, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg > <address-policy-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > > > > My point was also a general observation (not something against any > specific participant, just taking advantage of this specific example, as a > mention to "Spanish inquisition" and "routing police" could be interpreted in > between lines as something different, even if not intended). > > Jordi, your comment is a reasonable one. But it misses the point. In this > case, your common sense should have told you the earlier remark wasn't a > literal reference to the Spanish Inquisition. > > The RIPE/tech community habitually uses references to a variety of idioms > from popular culture in films, TV, books and songs. Using catchphrases from > Monty Python, Star Wars, Star Trek, H2G2, etc. are very common. That's > gone on for decades. These phrases might well confuse non-native English > speakers at first. Or (say) an English speaker who haven't seen Star Wars. > However people soon pick up these references, just like we all learn the > industry jargon -- route flapping, prefix filtering, trust anchors, ROA, PI > address space, etc -- that probably doesn't translate well into other > languages. That sort of understanding becomes almost automatic for those > who have been active in these communities for a while. > > To be honest Jordi, I'm surprised you said you were confused. Since you've > been coming to RIPE/IETF/ICANN meetings for longer than I can remember, > this couldn't possibly have been the first time you've come across a Monty > Python reference. > > And if you were confused, you could have said so at the time and asked > the original poster to explain. I think that's a far better way to handle things. > It's certainly far more productive than starting this meta-discussion or telling > others how they should express themselves. > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a > criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, > even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to > inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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Slido discontinued?
by Ruben van Staveren 25 Oct '19

25 Oct '19

Hi, To my surprise Slido wasn’t continued from its pilot in RIPE78 Are there any plans to bring it, or equivalent, back? Regards, Ruben

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Code of Conduct
by Hans Petter Holen 22 Oct '19

22 Oct '19

Thanks for the hard work with the next version of the code of conduct. Special thanks to Brian and Sahsa for presenting the work. Now the final challenge is to establish consensus. This means identifying remaining issues and address them. (This does not mean that all can be solved, but we should aim to document why they are not solved at this point.) I have done a quick analisys of the differences between the existing code of conduct and the new code of conduct. https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/ripe-meeting-code-o… and https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/ripe-meeting-code-o… The main text: « For over a quarter of a century, the RIPE community's strength comes from its breadth of experience, diversity of views, and an open, respectful exchange of ideas – values that we want all of our RIPE Meeting attendees to uphold.» Is the same in the two documents. In the old code of conduct it continues: « Please treat each other with tolerance and respect. Free speech and an open exchange of ideas are encouraged and celebrated. Demeaning, intimidating or harming anyone at the meeting is wrong. We are especially sensitive to behaviour that offends based on gender, sexual orientation, religion, race or ethnic origin, or other perceived social, cultural, or personal differences.» This has been removed from the new Coc, at least from the Intro. Is this deliberate? In the old code of conduct, there are currently 3 trusted contacts, selected by the RIPE chair without any documented process. In the new version the trusted contacts has been renamed to a CoC team of 4 to 6 and with a process on how the RIPE Chair selects the As for consequences the existing CoC only states « Please be aware that attendees violating the RIPE Meeting Code ofConduct may be asked to leave the meeting without a refund and other actions may be taken as deemed necessary.» In the new version there is a much more detailed list. It goes one step further on two areas: * Ban from future meetings is explicitly stated (which I would argue could happen under the existing CoC too) * Removing content from presentations on the meeting web. Here the PC has taken a very principal possition that the submitted presentation will be published as presented. Appeals is not at all covered in the existing CoC but is specified in the new version. While this is a very quick and high level analisys, I am thinking of publishing my thoughts on this, but would like your input before I do so. -hph -- -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph(a)oslo.net | http://hph.oslo.net

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some thoughts on draft code of conduct 3.0
by Joe Abley 22 Oct '19

22 Oct '19

Hi all, I have read the draft code of conduct published at <https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/ripe-meeting-code-o…> and have written down some comments, as requested. Some context: I do not personally feel like I am in an under-represented group of any kind. Despite being a serial immigrant in an entirely technical sense, I have never felt systemically under-represented, oppressed or threatened in my life. I think this makes me fortunate, since oppression is surely not something to wish for, but also quite ignorant, which is nothing to be proud of. Anyway: The need for the code of conduct is clear to me, thanks in part to the efforts of people like the authors of this document. The principles of the draft code of conduct seem entirely reasonable to me. I could summarise them as "be kind and show respect" -- but kindness and respect have the potential to be subjective and I think the extra detail in the document is useful. The consequences of a code of conduct violation seem clear and reasonable to me, although I would add "No action (if the team has not been able to determine that a violation has occurred)", which is not the same as the final bullet and seems important to include, since life is analogue and its signal is lossy. I think the idea of having a team of trained people available to navigate the swamp of poor conduct is a good idea. I do wonder slightly what happens if due to illness, visa problems or other unexpected consequences, it is not possible for three or more team members to attend a meeting. Simply declaring a requirement isn't enough to ensure it will always happen. However unlikely, it seems sensible to think about what would happen in that case. I have one principal concern with the document, as written. The RIPE community includes people who are painfully aware of what poor conduct looks like (because they have been subject to it) and also people who have never knowingly experienced it and who hence are poorly-informed. Setting aside deliberate bad behaviour that I am certain exists and which this code of conduct properly seeks to deal with, there is still the potential for harm between people who don't realise they are being hurtful and those who are hurt as a consequence. This seems like the most difficult kind of interaction to deal with fairly as a mediator and as a community. This document puts an enormous responsibility on a small team of volunteers to provide that function, and it is not obvious to me that that is fair. This seems to me like hard and painful work; work that has the potential to cause collateral damage to the community if it ever becomes too much for a small pool of volunteers to deal with, and rife with decisions that have the potential to have great personal and professional impact to all people concerned, including the people on the team. So, I have some thoughts: 1. Perhaps the code of conduct team don't need to take ultimate responsibility for decisions; perhaps in the case where the team has decided that a member of the community has behaved badly and action should be taken, that action (and responsibility for the action) can be taken by the RIPE NCC as the organisation that coordinates the RIPE community's social infrastructure. (Perhaps this is even prudent, considering that some of the actions that the team might decide should be taken might have legal consequences; I don't think volunteers should have to take legal or other personal risk. There are many jurisdictions to consider and some of them are more litigious than others.) 2. Perhaps the kind of training that is imagined for the code of conduct team could be made available, in some form, for everybody. I would certainly appreciate being educated on the myriad problems faced by others that I am not aware of. Awareness and understanding are surely good bridges towards fostering a safer and more kind environment for everybody. (That last one in particular just seems like good engineering: you take precautions when you design networks and systems to avoid failure, but you are prepared to deal with failure in case it happens anyway. The draft arguably concentrates on the latter without paying as much attention on the former. I think both are important.) Joe

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Meeting venue influences inclusivity
by Hank Nussbacher 21 Oct '19

21 Oct '19

I have read over the draft V3 CoC and notice an aspect that has bothered me and which precludes me and others from attending general RIPE meetings in certain venues. RIPE 75 took place in Dubai, UAE. Any Israeli citizen is not allowed to enter Dubai: http://www.dubaifaqs.com/israeli-stamp-passport-dubai.php "Israeli citizens are not permitted to enter the UAE on an Israeli passport or apply for a UAE visa" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_Arab_Emirates_relations "As the UAE does not officially recognize Israel, and does not allow Israeli citizens or those suspected of being Israeli citizens entry into the UAE, including Israeli passport holders, except for transit." If a CoC is being drafted and the intent is to be inclusive as possible and to eliminate discrimination based on nationality, I would like to suggest that it include a section that the venue of any general RIPE meeting cannot take place in a country that forbids certain people from attending. Regards, Hank

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Fwd: [ripe-list] Code of Conduct 3.0
by Hans Petter Holen 20 Oct '19

20 Oct '19

Malcolm raises some issues in his email to the ripe-list. How can theese be addressed? Even under the current CoC with trusted contacts this is not defined. I personally does not have an answer to how to handle this. There was an incident in 2016 that may be used as a case study to better understand the complexity: https://omblog.icann.org/ ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Malcolm Hutty <Malcolm(a)linx.net> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 at 14:25 Subject: [ripe-list] Code of Conduct 3.0 To: ripe-list(a)ripe.net <ripe-list(a)ripe.net> Dear all, I understand that on Thursday afternoon the RIPE Plenary will be invited to adopt “Code of Conduct v3.0”. Unfortunately I must leave Rotterdam at lunchtime, so I am writing to share with you my reasons for believing it should not be approved. Code of Conduct v3.0 proposes the creation of a new entity, the “CoC Team” who will be invested with the power to hear allegations of breach of the Code of Conduct and decide what sanctions, if any, to apply to the community member in violation. Planned sanctions include, amongst other things, 1. Not allowing someone to participate further in RIPE Meetings and/or other RIPE community spaces, for a set period or an indefinite period 2. A public reprimand 3. Requiring that a public apology is made Denying someone the opportunity to participate in RIPE is clearly a serious step. Issuing a public reprimand, or requiring a public apology (i.e. admission of guilt) is potentially seriously damaging to a person’s reputation. Since a public reprimand might make reference to the purposes of the Code, including the prevention of sexual harassment and racist abuse, and assert that the person was found to have violated the Code, but not necessarily say what the individual is alleged to have actually done, a public reprimand from the CoC team could have lasting impact on a person’s career prospects. It is therefore a matter of great importance to every member of this community that if such sanctions are ever applied, the most scrupulous process is used. Unfortunately, in my view the process set out in Code of Conduct 3.0 is very far from fit for purpose. For a start, given the gravity of the intended sanctions, I am stunned to see that the Code neither requires nor suggests that the CoC Team should attempt to speak to the accused individual to get their side of the story. Indeed, there is no requirement that the accused person is even informed of the details of the allegation against them. A public reprimand could be the first the subject hears of the matter. The right to be heard before being punished is not an obscure legalistic procedural device. It is fundamental to basic fairness. Granted, a right of appeal has been added to the Code (thank you Daniel Karrenberg for your urgent intervention!), but I do not think appeal after the fact is sufficient correction to a basically abusive process. Although the most egregious, that is far from the only flaw with Code of Conduct 3.0. It positively encourages anonymous complaints. Complaints are also encouraged not only from alleged “victims”, but also from “witnesses” The Code promises that the identity of the complainant will not be disclosed to the subject of the complaint, potentially making it impossible to understand the circumstances or provide an explanation. The person submitting a complaint is not disqualified under the Code from sitting as a member of the CoC Team adjudicating the complaint. Given that the Code also invites witness reports and assures witnesses that their reports will not be viewed less favourably because they have made multiple reports, it would be entirely consistent with the Code for the CoC Team to also act as as a Code of Conduct patrol, making reports of violations and then sitting in judgement on their own allegations. Thanks to anonymity, nobody outside the CoC team would even know if this were occurring. There are other problems, but this message is already too long. Throughout the Code, the emphasis is consistently on the CoC Team’s responsibility to the reporter. There is no such recognition of a responsibility to the person ‘under investigation’ – by which I mean, the person who is the subject of the complaint; there is actually no expectation set in the Code that the CoC Team would actually conduct an investigation, rather than proceeding directly to judgement on the basis solely of the information contained in the allegation. I have described some serious flaws, but in my view, it is not worth trying to rescue this proposal with patches to each of them. The document as a whole is riddled with bias, and should be abandoned. The Diversity Taskforce has demonstrated that it is not an appropriate body to be undertaking this work. Any serious attempt to create a process for enforcement of a Code of Conduct should be predicated on the basis that a grievance and disciplinary process (which is what this is) owes a serious duty of fairness to all parties, not only to one side. Malcolm. -- Malcolm Hutty | tel: +44 20 7645 3523 Head of Public Affairs | web: www.linx.net London Internet Exchange | London Internet Exchange Ltd Monument Place, 24 Monument Street London EC3R 8AJ <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Monument+Place,+24+Monument+Street+Londo…> Company Registered in England No. 3137929 Trinity Court, Trinity Street, Peterborough PE1 1DA -- -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph(a)oslo.net | http://hph.oslo.net

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