Recognisition of Kosovo and adding of LIR signup options with Kosovo as well as XK in inet(6)num
Hi, As the Netherlands recognise the Republic of Kosovo as sovereign nation (see 1), and the EU does as well (see 2) there should be a way to include the proposed 2 letter country code (XK, see 3) as option for inet(6)num objects. The EU and other multinational organisation (IMF, SWIFT etc., see 4) use this code already since independence in 2008, and it is the currently reserved ccTLD for Kosovo as well. Kosovo also has a unique phone number prefix assigned (+383) by the ITU (see 5). It makes no sense that EU and AP is available (which are not countries, AP is not even in ISO-3166-2), but XK is not. I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members. Please let me know how to bring in a draft resolution to adopt the ability to use Kosovo as legitimate country option in RIPE database objects, as well as the LIR sign up. It is the ONLY country that is recognised by both the Netherlands and the EU that cannot be used to sign up as a LIR and my client - a Telecoms company in Pristina that wants to stay anonymous at this time to avoid issues with Serbia - feels their right is violated by having to use either Serbia or Albania as billing location, and sees uncertainty in applicable laws and taxation with this. Thank you, William Weber (LIR Portal user: william@william.si, multiple LIRs managed) 1: https://web.archive.org/web/20080430070042/http://www.minbuza.nl/en/news/new... Kosovo.html 2: https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/countries/detailed-country-in... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_code_elements 4: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Glossary:... 5: https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-t/oth/02/02/T02020000FD0001PDFE.pdf 6: https://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm
To one side of your core concern, which I think is entirely valid. AP technically "belongs" to the African Fisheries forum, and APNIC deprecates use of AP in delegated statistics. as I write, only one (asn) record has AP against it. It may be used in Whois or RDAP. EU is used more widely but I have always found its use somewhat concerning: not that RIR delegated is the strong signal of geo, but EU is the weakest interpretation of Geo, in that context. That said, there are probably good use cases for both EU and AP, assuming we can convince the African Fishing industry to release it. Really? Geo is better solved. by Geofeed. There's an RFC for how to tell people where a network documents its intended use of resources, we do better to follow it in my opinion -G On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:10 AM William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi,
As the Netherlands recognise the Republic of Kosovo as sovereign nation (see 1), and the EU does as well (see 2) there should be a way to include the proposed 2 letter country code (XK, see 3) as option for inet(6)num objects. The EU and other multinational organisation (IMF, SWIFT etc., see 4) use this code already since independence in 2008, and it is the currently reserved ccTLD for Kosovo as well. Kosovo also has a unique phone number prefix assigned (+383) by the ITU (see 5).
It makes no sense that EU and AP is available (which are not countries, AP is not even in ISO-3166-2), but XK is not.
I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members.
Please let me know how to bring in a draft resolution to adopt the ability to use Kosovo as legitimate country option in RIPE database objects, as well as the LIR sign up. It is the ONLY country that is recognised by both the Netherlands and the EU that cannot be used to sign up as a LIR and my client - a Telecoms company in Pristina that wants to stay anonymous at this time to avoid issues with Serbia - feels their right is violated by having to use either Serbia or Albania as billing location, and sees uncertainty in applicable laws and taxation with this.
Thank you, William Weber (LIR Portal user: william@william.si, multiple LIRs managed)
1: https://web.archive.org/web/20080430070042/http://www.minbuza.nl/en/news/new... Kosovo.html 2: https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/countries/detailed-country-in... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_code_elements 4: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Glossary:... 5: https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-t/oth/02/02/T02020000FD0001PDFE.pdf 6: https://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm
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George Michaelson via db-wg wrote on 13/05/2022 01:59:
Really? Geo is better solved. by Geofeed. There's an RFC for how to tell people where a network documents its intended use of resources, we do better to follow it in my opinion
country: isn't intended for geolocation. It's the country where the organisation / person is legally based (i.e. where you send the proverbial warrant to). The idea of using XK and potentially other X* identifiers looks very reasonable. Maybe the chairs could create an NWI to track it? Nick
There is also a taxation issue here, i cannot put an invoice that lists Serbia or Albania as country for my company in my accounting or i probably go to jail, if not fined at the very least. My main problem is i cannot even sign up a LIR from Kosovo easily - I get told by RIPE to select either Serbia or Albania and provide documents from either country, direct quote from support:
You will be asked to select the country the company is registered in depending on the company registration papers provided. This documents are obviously issued by the ministry of finance of *Kosovo*, so what the hell should i provide? Do i go s*** d*** at the Albans to issue me an Albanian incorporation cert with "Pristina, Albania"?
Hell, even my Raiffeisen bank account IBAN in Kosovo also starts with XK*.... Even the *Ministry of Economy had to select their LIR as Albania*: organisation: ORG-MOEO2-RIPE org-name: Ministry of Economy of Republic of Kosovo country: AL org-type: *LIR* address: St. Mother Theresa, no. 36, address: 10000 address: Pristina, Kosovo*address: ALBANIA * My ASN (205432) is also Geolocated to Albania in the RIPE feed and now Serbian ISPs refuse to peer with me, if i selected Serbia then the Kosovarian and Albanian ISPs would refuse. Then we have issues with online services like Youtube that don't use Geofeed - If i set AL in my inetnums i get Albanian censorship, if i set RS i get Serbian propaganda that is illegal in Kosovo... My customers can also not sign up for pretty much any hosting/amazon or similar, they either cant select Kosovo, get declined by country mismatch of their cards (WHICH DO USE XK! My Visa clearly identifies as issued in Kosovo) or try to explain it and nobody wants to listen, This all is also nothing new - Kosovo is a country since 1999, 23 years..... it is pretty much more stable and democratic than Bosnia which de-facto is 3 countries.... -- William On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 11:54 AM Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
George Michaelson via db-wg wrote on 13/05/2022 01:59:
Really? Geo is better solved. by Geofeed. There's an RFC for how to tell people where a network documents its intended use of resources, we do better to follow it in my opinion
country: isn't intended for geolocation. It's the country where the organisation / person is legally based (i.e. where you send the proverbial warrant to).
The idea of using XK and potentially other X* identifiers looks very reasonable. Maybe the chairs could create an NWI to track it?
Nick
Hi, On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:51:12PM +0200, William Weber via db-wg wrote:
My main problem is i cannot even sign up a LIR from Kosovo easily - I get told by RIPE to select either Serbia or Albania and provide documents from either country, direct quote from support:
You will be asked to select the country the company is registered in depending on the company registration papers provided. This documents are obviously issued by the ministry of finance of *Kosovo*, so what the hell should i provide? Do i go s*** d*** at the Albans to issue me an Albanian incorporation cert with "Pristina, Albania"?
I think this is not so much a DB-WG issue, but a NCC members / board issue. Board, are you listening? :-) (Wether or not something can be put into the DB is a trivial code change, but if membership processes do not allow that "thing" in the first place, DB-WG can't fix it) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
--I think this is not so much a DB-WG issue, but a NCC members / board issue. I agree, but was sent to DB-WG by RIPE support. -- William On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:56 PM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:51:12PM +0200, William Weber via db-wg wrote:
My main problem is i cannot even sign up a LIR from Kosovo easily - I get told by RIPE to select either Serbia or Albania and provide documents from either country, direct quote from support:
You will be asked to select the country the company is registered in depending on the company registration papers provided. This documents are obviously issued by the ministry of finance of *Kosovo*, so what the hell should i provide? Do i go s*** d*** at the Albans to issue me an Albanian incorporation cert with "Pristina, Albania"?
I think this is not so much a DB-WG issue, but a NCC members / board issue.
Board, are you listening? :-)
(Wether or not something can be put into the DB is a trivial code change, but if membership processes do not allow that "thing" in the first place, DB-WG can't fix it)
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Dear all, William Weber, thank you for raising this issue. It seems there might be room for improvement to better serve the needs of the Kosovo internet community. I’ll ask to add the topic of recognising Kosovo in software and processes to the agenda of an upcoming executive board meeting. Kind regards, Job Snijders RIPE NCC Executive Board member On Fri, 13 May 2022 at 12:57, William Weber <william@inbox.li> wrote:
--I think this is not so much a DB-WG issue, but a NCC members / board issue.
I agree, but was sent to DB-WG by RIPE support.
-- William
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:56 PM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:51:12PM +0200, William Weber via db-wg wrote:
My main problem is i cannot even sign up a LIR from Kosovo easily - I get told by RIPE to select either Serbia or Albania and provide documents from either country, direct quote from support:
You will be asked to select the country the company is registered in depending on the company registration papers provided. This documents are obviously issued by the ministry of finance of *Kosovo*, so what the hell should i provide? Do i go s*** d*** at the Albans to issue me an Albanian incorporation cert with "Pristina, Albania"?
I think this is not so much a DB-WG issue, but a NCC members / board issue.
Board, are you listening? :-)
(Wether or not something can be put into the DB is a trivial code change, but if membership processes do not allow that "thing" in the first place, DB-WG can't fix it)
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen+14?entry=gmail&source=g> Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
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Hi Job, On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 01:11:23PM +0200, Job Snijders wrote:
I???ll ask to add the topic of recognising Kosovo in software and processes to the agenda of an upcoming executive board meeting.
Thanks a lot. gert -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
I think this is not so much a DB-WG issue, but a NCC members / board issue.
There are two very separate issues here. The first issue is whether folks in Kosovo are being adequately served by RIPE, and it sounds like the answer to that is pretty clearly “no.” The implementation details of _how_ RIPE resolves that are separate from _whether_ it should be solved. The second issue is whether RIPE should be in the business of overriding the ICP-1 delegation of the ccTLD namespace to ISO, which in turn delegates it to the UN Statistics Division. I think that’s inherently a bad idea, and I encourage people to consider what their opinion would be if the ITU decided to override the IANA’s delegation of address space, and give net 10 to the Chinese government, because they need to allocate it to networks within their borders. This is a thing which has been proposed, though not lately. How is this any different? Overriding a reservation for shared use made by the authoritative standards body, in order to privatize a portion of that shared space. Yes, of course there should be a country code for Kosovo. But it should no more be taken from the reserved space than net 10 should be given away to any single government. This is simply not our decision to make. It’s the UN Statistics Division’s, unless ISO says otherwise. Whether they’re fast enough to suit your needs honestly isn’t their problem. Exposing something other than a reserved country-code in RIPE’s user-facing software is a Simple Matter of Programming, and keeps RIPE from looking like they’re overstepping their mandate in a particularly clueless way. -Bill
Hi, On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 02:23:48PM +0200, Bill Woodcock via db-wg wrote:
Exposing something other than a reserved country-code in RIPE???s user-facing software is a Simple Matter of Programming, and keeps RIPE from looking like they???re overstepping their mandate in a particularly clueless way.
"Simple"? Maybe you can enlighten us how to achieve that Simple Matter, in the context of "country:" attributes which have a well defined syntax. This is not about "any arbitrary web interface which displays a list of fully spelt-out country names" (where internal representation would, indeed, not matter). Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi Bill, On 13.05.2022 14:23, Bill Woodcock via db-wg wrote:
[...]
The second issue is whether RIPE should be in the business of overriding the ICP-1 delegation of the ccTLD namespace to ISO, which in turn delegates it to the UN Statistics Division. [...]
I can't see how the ccTLD namespace comes into play here. I however do see ISO 3166 and its surrounding villages to be relevant - but without their ccTLD connotation. And as William Weber states: "Hell, even my Raiffeisen bank account IBAN in Kosovo also starts with XK*....", I feel that this warrants a deeper and more detailed look into matters - as banks IMHO are not well known for jumping the gun in adopting (international) standards. Even more so, as the "XK" for Kosovarian IBANs was not self-assigned by that Raiffeisen bank, but by SWIFT; see https://www.swift.com/standards/data-standards/iban-international-bank-accou... . IBANs, BTW, are also an ISO norm ;-) - please review ISO 13616-1:2020 (e.g. https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:81090:en) for details. Best, -C.
[ off list ] there was a reason jon went with 1366; outsourced the decision. randy
In message <CAN_aj=uKSR=S5ZQxgHwt-0xOHbdviuORH7qzpnTMf=wHx6FZLA@mail.gmail.com>, William Weber <william@inbox.li> wrote:
It makes no sense that EU and AP is available (which are not countries, AP is not even in ISO-3166-2), but XK is not.
I guess that it is a Good Thing that ICANN never saw fit to retire the .SU TLD, as that seems to be coming back into fashion now.
Hi William, A small clarification: currently only "officially assigned" ISO3166 country codes, and "EU" (exceptionally reserved) are valid as "country:" values in the RIPE database. "AP" is not currently allowed as a country code in the RIPE database. Regards Ed Shryane RIPE NCC
On 13 May 2022, at 02:10, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi,
As the Netherlands recognise the Republic of Kosovo as sovereign nation (see 1), and the EU does as well (see 2) there should be a way to include the proposed 2 letter country code (XK, see 3) as option for inet(6)num objects. The EU and other multinational organisation (IMF, SWIFT etc., see 4) use this code already since independence in 2008, and it is the currently reserved ccTLD for Kosovo as well. Kosovo also has a unique phone number prefix assigned (+383) by the ITU (see 5).
It makes no sense that EU and AP is available (which are not countries, AP is not even in ISO-3166-2), but XK is not.
William,
On May 13, 2022, at 2:11 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members.
The “X*” series is not reserved, they are (permanently) designated for “user-assigned” use. Think 10/8. Anyone (including RIPE) can use them for whatever purpose they so choose, just as anyone can use 10/8. Of course, your use and my use might conflict, but that’s for us to work out between us (with the obvious scaling implications that suggests). FYI, EU is different in that it is “exceptionally reserved”. It is one of a number of ISO-3166 codes that have that status (including UK, AC, DG, SU, and a few others). AP is a bit weird (IMHO) in that ISO-3166 Maintenance Agency has stated that they will not use the code “at the present stage.” I gather that’s an informal agreement between ISO-3166/MA and WIPO. I’ve no clue what that means for the long-term status of that code. The real question is what would break if RIPE chooses to use a user assigned code in their database. I’ve no idea, but to be honest, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the precedent it might set (and political foodfight it might generate given the UN Statistical Agency hasn’t seen fit to recommend the creation of an actual ISO-3166 code). However, I doubt my comfort matters. As far as I can tell, your reference to UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 is irrelevant, particularly as it (appropriately, given the status of the ISO-3166 code) doesn’t mention XK. FWIW, Jaap Akkerhuis, a person well known to many on this list, is extremely well-versed in the world of ISO-3166 and could probably provide any info you might need related to the use of ISO-3166 codes. Regards, -drc
In the end i dont care, Kosovo is a country (acknowledged by 50%+ of UN members including NL) and i want to be able to use it as intended. — William Sent from my iPhone
On 13.05.2022, at 21:58, David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org> wrote:
William,
On May 13, 2022, at 2:11 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members.
The “X*” series is not reserved, they are (permanently) designated for “user-assigned” use. Think 10/8. Anyone (including RIPE) can use them for whatever purpose they so choose, just as anyone can use 10/8. Of course, your use and my use might conflict, but that’s for us to work out between us (with the obvious scaling implications that suggests).
FYI, EU is different in that it is “exceptionally reserved”. It is one of a number of ISO-3166 codes that have that status (including UK, AC, DG, SU, and a few others). AP is a bit weird (IMHO) in that ISO-3166 Maintenance Agency has stated that they will not use the code “at the present stage.” I gather that’s an informal agreement between ISO-3166/MA and WIPO. I’ve no clue what that means for the long-term status of that code.
The real question is what would break if RIPE chooses to use a user assigned code in their database. I’ve no idea, but to be honest, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the precedent it might set (and political foodfight it might generate given the UN Statistical Agency hasn’t seen fit to recommend the creation of an actual ISO-3166 code). However, I doubt my comfort matters.
As far as I can tell, your reference to UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 is irrelevant, particularly as it (appropriately, given the status of the ISO-3166 code) doesn’t mention XK.
FWIW, Jaap Akkerhuis, a person well known to many on this list, is extremely well-versed in the world of ISO-3166 and could probably provide any info you might need related to the use of ISO-3166 codes.
Regards, -drc
Did anything ever happen with this? I still have to use Albania and with the new country set in ORGs i and other ISPs in Kosovo have even more problems now. We are extremely unhappy with this situation, the RIPE NCC and Dutch government can expect an official complaint letter from the Kosovarian government very soon if there is not even any attempt at talking with us/the gov and fixing this issue. I simply do not understand how we can be entirely ignored while even our banks usem XK IBANs and Euro as currency, it is absurd. -- William BASEHOST SHPK Pristina, Kosovo On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:33 PM William Weber <william@inbox.li> wrote:
In the end i dont care, Kosovo is a country (acknowledged by 50%+ of UN members including NL) and i want to be able to use it as intended.
— William
Sent from my iPhone
On 13.05.2022, at 21:58, David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org> wrote:
William,
On May 13, 2022, at 2:11 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members.
The “X*” series is not reserved, they are (permanently) designated for “user-assigned” use. Think 10/8. Anyone (including RIPE) can use them for whatever purpose they so choose, just as anyone can use 10/8. Of course, your use and my use might conflict, but that’s for us to work out between us (with the obvious scaling implications that suggests).
FYI, EU is different in that it is “exceptionally reserved”. It is one of a number of ISO-3166 codes that have that status (including UK, AC, DG, SU, and a few others). AP is a bit weird (IMHO) in that ISO-3166 Maintenance Agency has stated that they will not use the code “at the present stage.” I gather that’s an informal agreement between ISO-3166/MA and WIPO. I’ve no clue what that means for the long-term status of that code.
The real question is what would break if RIPE chooses to use a user assigned code in their database. I’ve no idea, but to be honest, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the precedent it might set (and political foodfight it might generate given the UN Statistical Agency hasn’t seen fit to recommend the creation of an actual ISO-3166 code). However, I doubt my comfort matters.
As far as I can tell, your reference to UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 is irrelevant, particularly as it (appropriately, given the status of the ISO-3166 code) doesn’t mention XK.
FWIW, Jaap Akkerhuis, a person well known to many on this list, is extremely well-versed in the world of ISO-3166 and could probably provide any info you might need related to the use of ISO-3166 codes.
Regards, -drc
I’m with DRC on this one… This isn’t RIPE’s call to make, it’s the UN’s. You’re barking up the wrong tree. -Bill
On Nov 17, 2022, at 12:09 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Did anything ever happen with this? I still have to use Albania and with the new country set in ORGs i and other ISPs in Kosovo have even more problems now.
We are extremely unhappy with this situation, the RIPE NCC and Dutch government can expect an official complaint letter from the Kosovarian government very soon if there is not even any attempt at talking with us/the gov and fixing this issue.
I simply do not understand how we can be entirely ignored while even our banks usem XK IBANs and Euro as currency, it is absurd.
-- William BASEHOST SHPK Pristina, Kosovo
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:33 PM William Weber <william@inbox.li> wrote: In the end i dont care, Kosovo is a country (acknowledged by 50%+ of UN members including NL) and i want to be able to use it as intended.
— William
Sent from my iPhone
On 13.05.2022, at 21:58, David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org> wrote:
William,
On May 13, 2022, at 2:11 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote: I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members.
The “X*” series is not reserved, they are (permanently) designated for “user-assigned” use. Think 10/8. Anyone (including RIPE) can use them for whatever purpose they so choose, just as anyone can use 10/8. Of course, your use and my use might conflict, but that’s for us to work out between us (with the obvious scaling implications that suggests).
FYI, EU is different in that it is “exceptionally reserved”. It is one of a number of ISO-3166 codes that have that status (including UK, AC, DG, SU, and a few others). AP is a bit weird (IMHO) in that ISO-3166 Maintenance Agency has stated that they will not use the code “at the present stage.” I gather that’s an informal agreement between ISO-3166/MA and WIPO. I’ve no clue what that means for the long-term status of that code.
The real question is what would break if RIPE chooses to use a user assigned code in their database. I’ve no idea, but to be honest, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the precedent it might set (and political foodfight it might generate given the UN Statistical Agency hasn’t seen fit to recommend the creation of an actual ISO-3166 code). However, I doubt my comfort matters.
As far as I can tell, your reference to UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 is irrelevant, particularly as it (appropriately, given the status of the ISO-3166 code) doesn’t mention XK.
FWIW, Jaap Akkerhuis, a person well known to many on this list, is extremely well-versed in the world of ISO-3166 and could probably provide any info you might need related to the use of ISO-3166 codes.
Regards, -drc
It is not really as the Netherlands and the EU recognise Kosovo as independent country. By your logic Taiwan/TW should also be not selectable, it however is - and Taiwan is recognised by much less countries ("UN members") than Kosovo. -- William On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 6:48 AM Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote:
I’m with DRC on this one… This isn’t RIPE’s call to make, it’s the UN’s. You’re barking up the wrong tree.
-Bill
On Nov 17, 2022, at 12:09 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Did anything ever happen with this? I still have to use Albania and with the new country set in ORGs i and other ISPs in Kosovo have even more problems now.
We are extremely unhappy with this situation, the RIPE NCC and Dutch government can expect an official complaint letter from the Kosovarian government very soon if there is not even any attempt at talking with us/the gov and fixing this issue.
I simply do not understand how we can be entirely ignored while even our banks usem XK IBANs and Euro as currency, it is absurd.
-- William BASEHOST SHPK Pristina, Kosovo
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:33 PM William Weber <william@inbox.li> wrote: In the end i dont care, Kosovo is a country (acknowledged by 50%+ of UN members including NL) and i want to be able to use it as intended.
— William
Sent from my iPhone
On 13.05.2022, at 21:58, David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org> wrote:
William,
On May 13, 2022, at 2:11 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote: I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members.
The “X*” series is not reserved, they are (permanently) designated for “user-assigned” use. Think 10/8. Anyone (including RIPE) can use them for whatever purpose they so choose, just as anyone can use 10/8. Of course, your use and my use might conflict, but that’s for us to work out between us (with the obvious scaling implications that suggests).
FYI, EU is different in that it is “exceptionally reserved”. It is one of a number of ISO-3166 codes that have that status (including UK, AC, DG, SU, and a few others). AP is a bit weird (IMHO) in that ISO-3166 Maintenance Agency has stated that they will not use the code “at the present stage.” I gather that’s an informal agreement between ISO-3166/MA and WIPO. I’ve no clue what that means for the long-term status of that code.
The real question is what would break if RIPE chooses to use a user assigned code in their database. I’ve no idea, but to be honest, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the precedent it might set (and political foodfight it might generate given the UN Statistical Agency hasn’t seen fit to recommend the creation of an actual ISO-3166 code). However, I doubt my comfort matters.
As far as I can tell, your reference to UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 is irrelevant, particularly as it (appropriately, given the status of the ISO-3166 code) doesn’t mention XK.
FWIW, Jaap Akkerhuis, a person well known to many on this list, is extremely well-versed in the world of ISO-3166 and could probably provide any info you might need related to the use of ISO-3166 codes.
Regards, -drc
Quoting William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net>:
It is not really as the Netherlands and the EU recognise Kosovo as independent country. By your logic Taiwan/TW should also be not selectable, it however is - and Taiwan is recognised by much less countries ("UN members") than Kosovo.
Two letters country codes are ruled by ISO 3166-1 standard. And, according to ISO 3166x, X* codes are NOT "country codes". XK is just a so called "user assigned code", temporary used by just few organizations (European Commission and SWIFT), but it's NOT an official country code. Other examples of user assigned codes: XI, used by UK Government for Northern Ireland, XU, used by World Intellectual Property Organization for "International Union for the Protection of New Varietes of Plants" XZ, used for installations in international waters Looking at EU, the XK code is "a designation without prejudice to positions on status, and is in line with UNSCR 1244/1999 and the ICJ Opinion on the Kosovo declaration of independence. (with asterisk and footnote in written documents, only the first time that Kosovo is mentioned)." https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Glossary:... Regards Franco Tauceri DOMAINREGISTER m: 39.3483064202 w: https://DomainRegister.international e: franco.tauceri@domainregister.it
On Nov 17, 2022, at 6:58 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote: It is not really as the Netherlands and the EU recognise Kosovo as independent country. By your logic Taiwan/TW should also be not selectable, it however is - and Taiwan is recognised by much less countries ("UN members") than Kosovo.
Wow, you’re just a fountain of non-sequiturs and straw-men, aren’t you? None of that has anything to do with anything, nor is any of it “my logic.” Country codes are defined by ISO-3166. ISO sources them from the Statistics Division of the United Nations Secretariat. Doesn’t matter what the Netherlands thinks, what the EU thinks, what you think, or what UN members think. You want Kosovo to have a country code, lobby the Statistics Division of the UN, and stop wasting our time. -Bill
On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 6:48 AM Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote: I’m with DRC on this one… This isn’t RIPE’s call to make, it’s the UN’s. You’re barking up the wrong tree.
-Bill
On Nov 17, 2022, at 12:09 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Did anything ever happen with this? I still have to use Albania and with the new country set in ORGs i and other ISPs in Kosovo have even more problems now.
We are extremely unhappy with this situation, the RIPE NCC and Dutch government can expect an official complaint letter from the Kosovarian government very soon if there is not even any attempt at talking with us/the gov and fixing this issue.
I simply do not understand how we can be entirely ignored while even our banks usem XK IBANs and Euro as currency, it is absurd.
-- William BASEHOST SHPK Pristina, Kosovo
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:33 PM William Weber <william@inbox.li> wrote: In the end i dont care, Kosovo is a country (acknowledged by 50%+ of UN members including NL) and i want to be able to use it as intended.
— William
Sent from my iPhone
On 13.05.2022, at 21:58, David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org> wrote:
William,
On May 13, 2022, at 2:11 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote: I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members.
The “X*” series is not reserved, they are (permanently) designated for “user-assigned” use. Think 10/8. Anyone (including RIPE) can use them for whatever purpose they so choose, just as anyone can use 10/8. Of course, your use and my use might conflict, but that’s for us to work out between us (with the obvious scaling implications that suggests).
FYI, EU is different in that it is “exceptionally reserved”. It is one of a number of ISO-3166 codes that have that status (including UK, AC, DG, SU, and a few others). AP is a bit weird (IMHO) in that ISO-3166 Maintenance Agency has stated that they will not use the code “at the present stage.” I gather that’s an informal agreement between ISO-3166/MA and WIPO. I’ve no clue what that means for the long-term status of that code.
The real question is what would break if RIPE chooses to use a user assigned code in their database. I’ve no idea, but to be honest, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the precedent it might set (and political foodfight it might generate given the UN Statistical Agency hasn’t seen fit to recommend the creation of an actual ISO-3166 code). However, I doubt my comfort matters.
As far as I can tell, your reference to UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 is irrelevant, particularly as it (appropriately, given the status of the ISO-3166 code) doesn’t mention XK.
FWIW, Jaap Akkerhuis, a person well known to many on this list, is extremely well-versed in the world of ISO-3166 and could probably provide any info you might need related to the use of ISO-3166 codes.
Regards, -drc
William, Job promised to bring it to a RIPE NCC board meeting. This happened here: https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2022/minutes-159th-exe... "The Board asked to pursue possible solutions for registrations of members from Kosovo. Athina Fragkouli noted this situation is being analysed and she will report back in the next meeting." It doesn't seem to have gotten added as an action item, and I don't see any further references to it. It is possible the report was made and it was not minuted, or that the analysis is taking longer than expected. Cheers, -- Shane On 17/11/2022 00.09, William Weber via db-wg wrote:
Did anything ever happen with this? I still have to use Albania and with the new country set in ORGs i and other ISPs in Kosovo have even more problems now.
We are extremely unhappy with this situation, the RIPE NCC and Dutch government can expect an official complaint letter from the Kosovarian government very soon if there is not even any attempt at talking with us/the gov and fixing this issue.
I simply do not understand how we can be entirely ignored while even our banks usem XK IBANs and Euro as currency, it is absurd.
-- William BASEHOST SHPK Pristina, Kosovo
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:33 PM William Weber <william@inbox.li <mailto:william@inbox.li>> wrote:
In the end i dont care, Kosovo is a country (acknowledged by 50%+ of UN members including NL) and i want to be able to use it as intended.
— William
Sent from my iPhone
On 13.05.2022, at 21:58, David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org <mailto:drc@virtualized.org>> wrote:
William,
On May 13, 2022, at 2:11 AM, William Weber via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net <mailto:db-wg@ripe.net>> wrote:
I am aware the the X* series of codes is reserved and not permanently assigned, however UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 (see 6) mandates the use binding to all UN members.
The “X*” series is not reserved, they are (permanently) designated for “user-assigned” use. Think 10/8. Anyone (including RIPE) can use them for whatever purpose they so choose, just as anyone can use 10/8. Of course, your use and my use might conflict, but that’s for us to work out between us (with the obvious scaling implications that suggests).
FYI, EU is different in that it is “exceptionally reserved”. It is one of a number of ISO-3166 codes that have that status (including UK, AC, DG, SU, and a few others). AP is a bit weird (IMHO) in that ISO-3166 Maintenance Agency has stated that they will not use the code “at the present stage.” I gather that’s an informal agreement between ISO-3166/MA and WIPO. I’ve no clue what that means for the long-term status of that code.
The real question is what would break if RIPE chooses to use a user assigned code in their database. I’ve no idea, but to be honest, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the precedent it might set (and political foodfight it might generate given the UN Statistical Agency hasn’t seen fit to recommend the creation of an actual ISO-3166 code). However, I doubt my comfort matters.
As far as I can tell, your reference to UN Security Council resolution 1244/99 is irrelevant, particularly as it (appropriately, given the status of the ISO-3166 code) doesn’t mention XK.
FWIW, Jaap Akkerhuis, a person well known to many on this list, is extremely well-versed in the world of ISO-3166 and could probably provide any info you might need related to the use of ISO-3166 codes.
Regards, -drc
participants (13)
-
Bill Woodcock -
Carsten Schiefner -
David Conrad -
Edward Shryane -
Franco Tauceri -
George Michaelson -
Gert Doering -
Job Snijders -
Nick Hilliard -
Randy Bush -
Ronald F. Guilmette -
Shane Kerr -
William Weber