I feel this is more appropriate to be discussed on the db-wg. Mirjam Kuehne RIPE NCC ------- Forwarded Message Date: 26 Nov 1998 17:21:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 23377 invoked by uid 0); 26 Nov 1998 17:21:35 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.1.99) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 26 Nov 1998 17:21:35 -0000 Received: from postman.ripe.net by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA27381 (5.65a/RIPE-NCC); Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:21:34 +0100 Received: (qmail 23374 invoked by uid 0); 26 Nov 1998 17:21:30 -0000 Received: from biff.ibm.net.il (192.115.72.164) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 26 Nov 1998 17:21:30 -0000 Received: from docking.interall.co.il (dial1.tlv.ibm.net.il [192.116.177.129]) by biff.ibm.net.il (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA31544 for <local-ir@ripe.net>; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:21:26 +0200 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19981126172113.006820b4@max.ibm.net.il> X-Sender: hank@max.ibm.net.il X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:21:13 +0200 To: <local-ir@ripe.net> From: Hank Nussbacher <hank@ibm.net.il> Subject: Ripe change to whois I may have missed it, but a serious *bad* change has occured to the whois interface. Previously, if I did a check on abcdef.co.il and abcdef did not exist, whois would return an error message. Now, whois returns the domain and role records for the next upper level domain - i.e. co.il or .il. Other examples: zzzz.ac.uk, zzzz.ac.at. How did I find out about this? I received 3 phone calls already in the past 24 hours from users in Israel stating that I personally am registered as owner of hundreds of domains. They state that being on the board of the ISOC-IL which oversees the registration, I have violated the rules (limit of 10 domains per person - other countries have similar restrictions). I have tried explaining to them that I am not the owner of these domains. If it was 1 user, I would assume they didn't read the entry correctly. But the fact that 3 totally different people have called me to ask whether I would sell certain domain names to them, I can only conclude that the RIPE change is not that successful. People have been used to getting an error message from RIPE, similar to the "No match" one gets from Internic. When they now get a valid response, they don't bother to check that the response is not for the domain they requested. There is no error message or error code. This needs to be rectified (and changes discussed in the future - ignore if it has been mentioned). - -Hank Nussbacher ISOC-IL board member ------- End of Forwarded Message
Dear all, The implementation of the referral mechanism is a new feature of the latest release of the RIPE DB software. The design of this feature was specified some time ago by Carol Orange and Wilfried Woeber (please see http://www.ripe.net/meetings/ripe/ripe-27/pres/rout e/referral/) and discussed in the RIPE db-wg mailing list (please see http://www.ripe.net/mail-archives/db-wg/19970501-19970601/threads.html) According to this proposal the algorithm to be implemented is (extracted from the proposal): *********** Algorithm --------- If the following query is submitted to the RIPE database: whois [flags] xxx.yyy.zz the algorithm will work as follows: ------- NAME="xxx.yyy.zz" until (NAME = "") { If object with domain = NAME found, If object contains referral (see "Referral" below) forward query (see "Forward" below) Else return object Else Strip(NAME) (xxx.yyy.zz -> yyy.zz, etc) } NOTES ----- 1. We move up the tree here, and return the next level answer if present. If the query requests "tuintje.cwi.nl" (Piet, do you mind?), they currently get "No entries found ...". In the new mechanism, they would get: domain: cwi.nl . . . mnt-by: NL-DOMREG changed: hostmaster@domain-registry.nl 19950227 source: RIPE Moreover, if the object for cwi.nl contains a referral, the query would be passed on to the specified server as explained below. 2. The algorithm will be set off by any query which causes a search in the domain object index. This means any query with "-T domain", or any general query (no -T flag) with something that "looks like a domain". ************* Currently and due to s small desynchronization within the RIPE NCC DB group and the fact that the proposal was not clear about a particular point the referred query is for the truncated object in the RIPE DB containing the refer attribute. We want to modify this so that the query to the authoritative server is for the user's initial query and not the result of the truncating algorithm. This change will take place either today or tomorrow and a note will be sent to the db-wg. As a side note I would like to stress that the RIPE Database is NOT the source of authoritative data for domain objects (although we are happy to provide a repository for TLD administrators). This is UNLIKE the internic whose business is to sell names. The RIPE NCC is therefore acting according to users directives that were discussed and agreed on an open way. We are happy to hear any comments about this or any other issues regarding the DB software and will keep working to suggest and provide users with functionality that will help them the most. Please send any comments to the RIPE mailing lists. Best regards, Joao Damas RIPE DB Group manager RIPE NCC NCC local-ir list Moderator <lir-mod@ripe.net> writes: * * I feel this is more appropriate to be discussed on the db-wg. * * Mirjam Kuehne * RIPE NCC * * ------- Forwarded Message * * Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:21:13 +0200 * To: <local-ir@ripe.net> * From: Hank Nussbacher <hank@ibm.net.il> * Subject: Ripe change to whois * * I may have missed it, but a serious *bad* change has occured to the whois * interface. Previously, if I did a check on abcdef.co.il and abcdef did not * exist, whois would return an error message. Now, whois returns the domain * and role records for the next upper level domain - i.e. co.il or .il. Other * examples: zzzz.ac.uk, zzzz.ac.at. * * How did I find out about this? I received 3 phone calls already in the past * 24 hours from users in Israel stating that I personally am registered as * owner of hundreds of domains. They state that being on the board of the * ISOC-IL which oversees the registration, I have violated the rules (limit of * 10 domains per person - other countries have similar restrictions). I have * tried explaining to them that I am not the owner of these domains. If it * was 1 user, I would assume they didn't read the entry correctly. But the * fact that 3 totally different people have called me to ask whether I would * sell certain domain names to them, I can only conclude that the RIPE change * is not that successful. * People have been used to getting an error message from RIPE, similar to the * "No match" one gets from Internic. When they now get a valid response, they * don't bother to check that the response is not for the domain they * requested. There is no error message or error code. * * This needs to be rectified (and changes discussed in the future - ignore if * it has been mentioned). * * - -Hank Nussbacher * ISOC-IL board member * * * * * ------- End of Forwarded Message * * *
Hello.
The design of this feature was specified some time ago by Carol Orange and Wilfried Woeber (please see http://www.ripe.net/meetings/ripe/ripe-27/pres/rout e/referral/) and discussed in the RIPE db-wg mailing list (please see http://www.ripe.net/mail-archives/db-wg/19970501-19970601/threads.html)
Oh. Fine. Do I get it right that this was discussed and agreed on more than a year ago? Argh. This change breaks too many things, imnsho, and it seems again that if you are not able to make it to the RIPE meetings, you have lost. A special announce would have been most helpful (an explicit one, stating this).
As a side note I would like to stress that the RIPE Database is NOT the source of authoritative data for domain objects (although we are happy to provide a repository for TLD administrators). This is UNLIKE the internic whose business is to sell names.
Oh. Fine. whois.nic.de *cough* barely ever working... Weak argument. And If I wanted to know the data about the domain one level higher, I can do so myself, I don't need to get it told to me by whois, I want to know whether crab.de (bad example, it really exists) is in the DB already or not.
The RIPE NCC is therefore acting according to users directives that were discussed and agreed on an open way.
Hitchhiker's Guide, anyone? *sigh* This was a not-so-nice change, really. Consider this a statement of disagreement with the way the change took place. Ok, one more mailling list to follow... Time to sell. Regards, Alexander Koch -- SGH Internet Division, Alexander Koch, Systems Administration Hannover, Germany, Phone +49 511 909198 0, Fax +49 511 391307
Hello. I am including the tld-wg into this discussion so as to make sure all involved parties are aware of the discussion. Alexander Koch <akoch@sgh-net.de> writes: * Hello. * * > The design of this feature was specified some time ago by Carol Orange and * * > Wilfried Woeber (please see http://www.ripe.net/meetings/ripe/ripe-27/pres * /rout * > e/referral/) and discussed in the RIPE db-wg mailing list (please see * > http://www.ripe.net/mail-archives/db-wg/19970501-19970601/threads.html) * * Oh. Fine. Do I get it right that this was discussed and agreed on * more than a year ago? Argh. * Yes, indeed. We had a period where we have been late with developments. That period is now behind us. * This change breaks too many things, imnsho, and it seems again that if * you are not able to make it to the RIPE meetings, you have lost. A * special announce would have been most helpful (an explicit one, stating * this). * But, we did... or so I thought. We'll look into more ways of getting this announcements across while trying to minimize the mails sent to people who don't care about this. This particular feature has been actively asked for by the ccTLD adninistrators and seen as a good thing by everyone I have had a chance to speak with. These are actually the first complaints about it we have got so far. * > As a side note I would like to stress that the RIPE Database is NOT the so * urce * > of authoritative data for domain objects (although we are happy to provide * a * > repository for TLD administrators). * > This is UNLIKE the internic whose business is to sell names. * * Oh. Fine. whois.nic.de *cough* barely ever working... Weak argument. * And If I wanted to know the data about the domain one level higher, * I can do so myself, I don't need to get it told to me by whois, I * want to know whether crab.de (bad example, it really exists) is in * the DB already or not. I am sorry but I can't talk about the availability of services we don't operate. I am sure you can look up domains yourself but this was actually seen as providing the users (specially the ones less familiar with the RIPE DB) with help on where to find the correct information. It seems to me that over time people have developed a sense that the RIPE DB is the authoritative source of information regarding domain names in Europe. May be this issue should be up for debate now. As a matter of fact the referral mechanism was seen as a way for ccTLD administrators to include information in the Database pointing to their own authoritative sources of information. * * > The RIPE NCC is therefore acting according to users directives that were * > discussed and agreed on an open way. * * Hitchhiker's Guide, anyone? *sigh* ??? * * This was a not-so-nice change, really. Consider this a statement of * disagreement with the way the change took place. Ok, one more mailling * list to follow... Time to sell. Will do so. As I said before, we will keep modifying and developing the RIPE DB software and in particular this feature if users feel that is what they want. We will also provide our point view. I would like to have the input of the community. Regards, Joao * * Regards, * Alexander Koch * * -- * SGH Internet Division, Alexander Koch, Systems Administration * Hannover, Germany, Phone +49 511 909198 0, Fax +49 511 391307 *
participants (3)
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Alexander Koch -
Joao Luis Silva Damas -
NCC local-ir list Moderator