Hi Gert I know we have a fundamental difference of opinion here but I will try to be constructive. On 10/03/2016 19:00, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 06:50:52PM +0100, denis wrote:
Maybe we should talk about making admin-c and tech-c work like abuse-c. That would be a step in the right direction.
So you want to add millions of unmaintained organization: objects to the millions of unmaintained admin-c:/tech-c: references?
For a start there would not be millions of unmaintained admin-c and tech-c references if they were used hierarchically. The problem here is that they are both mandatory in the inet(6)num objects. But for many organisations they don't need a different reference for every resource. This just generates massive amounts of unmaintained references. It gets even worse when the reference PERSON objects instead of ROLE objects. So for many organisations to define just one admin-c and one tech-c in their ORGANISATION object would be all they need. I know there are power uses who don't follow the simple model. But so many members (who don't seem to be represented on these mailing lists) would benefit from such simplifications. Secondly you would only need more ORGANISATION objects for these power uses who have more complex business models.
Sounds like a very good plan to improve data quality!
What?!
(I wouldn't mind the hierarchical lookup capability that abuse-c: has, so "if an inetnum has no tech-c:, find the next less specific and use that", but the indirection via org and mandatory role is way too silly to be extended further. Maybe you should start *using* the database for a while, like, "work at an ISP", so you can see which ideas are just not practical from a user point of view?)
There must be a middle ground here between my desire to simplify the data model and use a lot more inheritance and your desire not to have to duplicate ORGANISATION objects. But no one is willing to talk about the bigger picture. This database design is almost 20 years old. The abuse-c and irt object are the only things that use inheritance in this hierarchical structure. The majority of the 12k+ members are not like many of the people on these mailing lists. They have not been using this database for the last 20 years. They really do struggle to understand it and use it. Technology that gets stuck in a time warp is bad technology. But there is no vision about what to do with this registry database. The RIPE NCC has had, has and will have some very good engineers, analysts and designers. You are paying for them. But they are too scared to propose a big change in case the 'community' just says NO. So instead they try to slip in little changes to nudge it along in a better direction. Changes they hope won't rock any boats and will get approved. That is why abuse-c works the way it does. I had a much bigger vision at the time but was not able to say it. So it is a little bit of a bigger plan which on its own may not be the best solution. This is why I keep banging my head against the wall about the data model. I have nothing personally to gain or lose either way. But professionally I want to see this product move forward for the good of the internet community. The data model is way past the stage of little changes and tweaks now. What it needs now is a revolution...even if that is done in small backwards compatible steps....at least have a vision about where it is going. The last revolution was 17 years ago and deployed in a big bang 15 years ago....it is time for another one. cheers denis
Gert Doering -- NetMaster