- db-wg - mailman.ripe.net

2022-01 Resource holders identity
by denis walker 02 Jun '22

02 Jun '22

Colleagues Now we move on to the more difficult issue of identifying resource holders. For any resource holder that is not a natural person I don't think there is a privacy issue. For natural persons we seem to have this conflict between privacy and public interest. The privacy issue is well understood. Publishing the name and address of a natural person in an open, public database can have severe consequences. But what is the public interest? To understand this question we have to dig deep into the purpose of the RIPE Database. Terms are thrown around with little consideration to what they actually mean. We all know the RIPE Database is a 'public registry', but what does that really mean? What is it a registry of, why does it need to register this, who needs to know what and why? After 30 years maybe we need to re-evaluate the fundamental purpose of this database. The database is a number, routing and reverse delegation registry. The routing and delegation elements generally don't include personal data, so we can put them to one side for the moment. What is the number registry? It 'documents' IP addresses (IPv4 and IPv6). It is arguable if ASNs are part of the number or routing registry. Although they are Internet resources, the "org:" attribute is optional so it is not possible to identify the resource holder of an ASN using the database. There are a number of reasons that have been given over the years for why this documentation is required. To ensure allocations and assignments are unique. To know what parts of allocations are 'in use' by end users. To identify who is responsible for a block of address space. To have a means of contacting network operators for several reasons. We have already discussed contacts, so the key issue here relating to both privacy and public interest is identifying who is responsible for a block of address space. Let's consider why this needs to be done and who needs to know. ORGANISATION and INET(6)NUM objects all reference contacts. So if there are any technical, administrative or abuse issues there are contacts who can handle these issues. We have already agreed that contacts must be contactable and they must only exist in the database if they are capable of addressing the related issues. So what is the reason for wanting or needing to be able to identify who is responsible for a block of address space and where to find them? Taking away all the issues that contacts can handle, are we down to purely legal matters? Is it for those cases involving criminal or abusive behaviour that someone wants to hold the responsible party accountable or liable? Are there research and investigatory reasons for identifying the holders of blocks? Do some people want to cross reference assignments held by individuals or organisations from multiple, different resource holders to monitor activities? If so, is it in the public interest and should it override privacy? Before we can decide on the priorities of privacy vs public interest, we need to understand what that public interest is. How does that public interest fit with the purpose of the database? We need to have this discussion now on the purpose of the database and the public interest, or not, in certain bits of data to decide if the identities of natural persons holding resources can, should, must be hidden from public view. cheers denis proposal author

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Re: [db-wg] 2022-01 Resource holders identity
by denis walker 31 May '22

31 May '22

Hi Tyrasuki On Tue, 31 May 2022 at 07:24, Tyrasuki <me(a)tyrasuki.be> wrote: > > Hi Denis, > > I assume yes, but has it already been suggested to go for a > middle-ground, and have resources possibly identified by for example, a > nickname / username? That could be quite complicated and not sure of the benefit. Especially with assignments. How would we know the same nickname was used each time for a specific person? > > As an example, I use Tyrasuki everywhere as my online nickname, and I > hold 4 PI assignments and 2 ASNs. But there is a PERSON and ORGANISATION object in the database with your full name and address details. These are linked to several INET(6)NUM and AUT-NUM objects. So your personal details are fully exposed. > > This would still make it possible for people to know I operate the > network, and I can then, on for example my personal site, list contact > details if I'd find this necessary. Contacts are not an issue. They can be fully documented without personal data (check out the thread on this list about contact details). cheers denis proposal author > > Or even on PeeringDB for that matter. :) > > (I might have possibly glimpsed over this a bit too quick if this was > already ruled out of the question) > > As for public interest, the only reason I could see it being relevant is > to know who to address in mails. > > PS: I am writing this directly instead of to the mailing list, as I'm > not sure if my points mentioned above make a lot of sense or not. (It's > currently 7:00 in the morning and I've been up all night debugging > hardware. :) ) > > Kind regards, > Tyrasuki > > https://tyrasuki.be > F587 F089 1655 A5E0 > > On 5/30/2022 1:17 PM, denis walker via db-wg wrote: > > Colleagues > > > > We had a good discussion on contact details, I am hoping we can do the > > same on resource holder identity. I know there is reluctance in the > > community to get into a deep discussion on the purposes of the RIPE > > Database. The Task Force sidestepped the issue as far as any public > > discussion is concerned. It is a difficult subject. The use of the > > database as a public registry is not in question. We do need an > > updated understanding of what that means. > > > > If no one is able to present the public interest case for publishing > > the name and address of natural persons holding resources then the > > privacy case takes priority. If we cannot justify publishing this > > personal information based on the purposes, then the GDPR says very > > clearly that we must not publish it. All personal details of natural > > persons holding resources will have to be removed from the database or > > hidden from public view. This will also apply to assignments as well. > > There are many assignments with name and full address details of > > natural persons in the "descr:" attributes. We will have to remove the > > "descr:" attributes where the assignee is a natural person or hide > > them from public view. > > > > We need to have this discussion now and reach a new consensus, no > > matter how difficult it is...otherwise privacy overrides all other > > concerns, which may be the new consensus anyway. > > > > cheers > > denis > > proposal author > > > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 at 16:29, denis walker <ripedenis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Colleagues > >> > >> Now we move on to the more difficult issue of identifying resource > >> holders. For any resource holder that is not a natural person I don't > >> think there is a privacy issue. For natural persons we seem to have > >> this conflict between privacy and public interest. The privacy issue > >> is well understood. Publishing the name and address of a natural > >> person in an open, public database can have severe consequences. But > >> what is the public interest? > >> > >> To understand this question we have to dig deep into the purpose of > >> the RIPE Database. Terms are thrown around with little consideration > >> to what they actually mean. We all know the RIPE Database is a 'public > >> registry', but what does that really mean? What is it a registry of, > >> why does it need to register this, who needs to know what and why? > >> After 30 years maybe we need to re-evaluate the fundamental purpose of > >> this database. > >> > >> The database is a number, routing and reverse delegation registry. The > >> routing and delegation elements generally don't include personal data, > >> so we can put them to one side for the moment. What is the number > >> registry? It 'documents' IP addresses (IPv4 and IPv6). It is arguable > >> if ASNs are part of the number or routing registry. Although they are > >> Internet resources, the "org:" attribute is optional so it is not > >> possible to identify the resource holder of an ASN using the database. > >> There are a number of reasons that have been given over the years for > >> why this documentation is required. To ensure allocations and > >> assignments are unique. To know what parts of allocations are 'in use' > >> by end users. To identify who is responsible for a block of address > >> space. To have a means of contacting network operators for several > >> reasons. > >> > >> We have already discussed contacts, so the key issue here relating to > >> both privacy and public interest is identifying who is responsible for > >> a block of address space. Let's consider why this needs to be done and > >> who needs to know. ORGANISATION and INET(6)NUM objects all reference > >> contacts. So if there are any technical, administrative or abuse > >> issues there are contacts who can handle these issues. We have already > >> agreed that contacts must be contactable and they must only exist in > >> the database if they are capable of addressing the related issues. So > >> what is the reason for wanting or needing to be able to identify who > >> is responsible for a block of address space and where to find them? > >> Taking away all the issues that contacts can handle, are we down to > >> purely legal matters? Is it for those cases involving criminal or > >> abusive behaviour that someone wants to hold the responsible party > >> accountable or liable? Are there research and investigatory reasons > >> for identifying the holders of blocks? Do some people want to cross > >> reference assignments held by individuals or organisations from > >> multiple, different resource holders to monitor activities? If so, is > >> it in the public interest and should it override privacy? > >> > >> Before we can decide on the priorities of privacy vs public interest, > >> we need to understand what that public interest is. How does that > >> public interest fit with the purpose of the database? We need to have > >> this discussion now on the purpose of the database and the public > >> interest, or not, in certain bits of data to decide if the identities > >> of natural persons holding resources can, should, must be hidden from > >> public view. > >> > >> cheers > >> denis > >> proposal author > > >

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phone number required for person objects
by Cynthia Revström 26 May '22

26 May '22

Hi, TL;DR: stop requiring the "phone" attribute for person objects. This is something that I quickly brought up during the db-wg session at RIPE84 but thought would be good to bring up here as well. Currently you need to specify a phone number for person objects but not for role objects, which I think should be fixed (as in not require it for person objects either). While there is the argument to be made to not encourage use of person objects or whatever, I do think that we should make sure that they are functionally the same as to prevent people putting PII in role objects. This is so we can still keep track of how many personal contact objects there are, which would be more difficult if people used role objects for personal contacts. -Cynthia

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2022-01 New Policy Proposal (Personal Data in the RIPE Database)
by Angela Dall'Ara 25 May '22

25 May '22

Dear colleagues, A new RIPE Policy proposal, 2022-01, "Personal Data in the RIPE Database" is now available for discussion. The goal of this proposal is to allow the publication of verified Personal Data in the RIPE Database only when they are justified by its purpose. You can find the full proposal at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2022-01 As per the RIPE Policy Development Process (PDP), the purpose of this four week Discussion Phase is to discuss the proposal and provide feedback to the proposer. At the end of the Discussion Phase, the proposer, with the agreement of the WG Chairs, will decide how to proceed with the proposal. The PDP document can be found at: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-710 We encourage you to review this proposal and send your comments to db-wg(a)ripe.net before 8 June 2022. Kind regards, Angela Dall'Ara Policy Officer RIPE NCC

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Decision on NWI-2 Historical queries
by denis walker 18 May '22

18 May '22

Colleagues When I wrote the spec for historical queries, almost 10 years ago, I included an arbitrary constraint to only show history back to the most recent deletion point. This was to get something in production quickly and see how useful it was. Over the years several people have asked for this arbitrary constraint to be removed. No one has objected to removing it. The co-chairs therefore recommend that this arbitrary constraint be removed. The co-chairs now ask the RIPE NCC to produce an impact analysis and implementation plan to remove it. We will then seek a final approval from the community on the plan. cheers denis co-chair DB-WG

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Impact Analysis for UTF-8 in the RIPE Database
by Edward Shryane 12 May '22

12 May '22

Dear Colleagues, The RIPE NCC was requested by the Database Working Group to perform an impact analysis for UTF-8 in the RIPE Database, including the technical and functional effects on the RIPE NCC itself. How would the RIPE Registry function with UTF-8? And what would be the impact on running the Registry? The RIPE NCC has now published a RIPE Labs article detailing the impact analysis: https://labs.ripe.net/author/ed_shryane/impact-analysis-for-utf-8-in-the-ri… Regards Ed Shryane RIPE NCC

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DB Task Force Recommendations
by denis walker 11 May '22

11 May '22

Colleagues The chairs propose creating a series of NWIs to address the recommendations recently made by the Database Task Force that are considered to be relevant to the DB-WG. NWI-15 Baseline requirements for registration information NWI-16 Using RIPE Database as an IPAM solution NWI-17 Historical data NWI-18 Operational Contact Information They can all reference this page as the Problem Definition https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/tf/rdb-requirements-tf/database-requi… cheers denis co-chair DB-WG

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Agenda RIPE84 - Database Working Group
by William Sylvester 09 May '22

09 May '22

Dear Database Working Group Members, Below is the agenda for the Database Working Group for RIPE84. If you would like to present, have questions, comments, or requested changes please let the chairs know. Best regards, William & Denis DB-WG Chairs A. Introduction - 10 min * Welcome * Scribe * Jabber * Chairs & Succession Planning * Agenda B. NWI Update – 20 mins Denis Walker, Co-Chair DB-WG C. Operational Update– 20 mins Edward Shryane, RIPE NCC D. Personal Data in the RIPE Database – 20 mins Denis Walker, Co-Chair DB-WG Z. AOB (open discussion)

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NWI-1 Staying on top of abuse contact changes
by denis walker 09 May '22

09 May '22

Colleagues There has been no interest in this item for several years so the chairs recommend cancelling NWI-1. We ask the RIPE NCC to mark it as 'Cancelled'. cheers denis co-chair DB-WG

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Whois Release 1.103
by Edward Shryane 09 May '22

09 May '22

Dear Colleagues, RIPE Database release 1.103 has been deployed to the Release Candidate environment. We plan to deploy to production on Monday 9th May. The database in the Release Candidate environment has been reloaded with dummified production data from 20th April. This release includes the following main changes: • Fixed "goefeed:" validation when reading object containing multiple remarks: attributes (#975) • Removed WHITEPAGES org type. (#1003) • Better Error Message when Changing "mnt-by:" on Allocations (#988) • Allow user "mnt-by:" when creating inet6num allocations (already allowed for inetnums) (#982) • Disallow weak keys and hash algorithms (#642, #974) • Abuse-c is Required for End User Organisations With Resources (#955, #969) • Domain overlap validator (#956) • Increase HTTP idle timeout from 30s to 60s (#998) The release notes are on the website: https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/db/release-notes/ripe-database-rel… More information on the Release Candidate environment can be found on our website: https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/db/release-notes/rc-release-candid… Please let us know if you find any issues with this release in the RC environment. Regards Ed Shryane RIPE NCC

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