- db-wg - mailman.ripe.net

formular for access to dbm
by glaess＠element5.de 12 Jan '01

12 Jan '01

hi folks, i need the name of the formular what i will send to auto-dbm(a)ripe.net for mirror the dbm . in the documents (ripe-157) under 2.5 are written you must be in the access list ... send us the ip address after the the emailaddr. but what kind of formular ?

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RE: Loop in AS macro
by Lu, Ping 11 Jan '01

11 Jan '01

Hi, I am new to this list and would like to ask a (maybe stupid) question to the dicussion: If we want to write a script to expand the AS MACRO, how can we avoid to go into a loop if multiple AS-MACROs reference each other ? Ping Lu Cable & Wireless USA Network Tools and Analysis Group W: 703-292-2359 E: plu(a)cw.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Cengiz Alaettinoglu [mailto:cengiz@packetdesign.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 12:14 PM > To: Shane Kerr > Cc: Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet; farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr; > db-wg(a)ripe.net; routing-wg(a)ripe.net; Henk.Uijterwaal(a)ripe.net > Subject: RE: Loop in AS macro > > > > Shane Kerr (shane(a)ripe.net) on January 10: > > Gilles, Wilfried, and all, > > > > This is not a bug, or even an inconsistency. Consider the following > > as-macro objects: > > > > as-macro: AS-X > > members: AS-Y, AS123 > > > > as-macro: AS-Y > > members: AS-X, AS456, AS789 > > > > In this case, AS-X and AS-Y both expand to the same aut-num objects: > > AS123, AS456, and AS789. However, they may have different > maintainers, > > contacts, descriptions, and so on. In RPSL, many more > kinds of loops are > > possible as well, in as-set, route-set, and filter-set objects. > > RPSL defines semantics when loops exist. However, it does not promote > them, or prohibit additional restrictions by the registry operators > not to have loops. > > > > > External software that deals with the set objects needs to do loop > > detection in order to prevent infinite loops. For as-set > objects (which > > are as-macro objects in RIPE-181), this is fairly easy: > keep a list or > > hash of the AS sets expanded, and don't expand them again. > For route-set > > and filter-set objects it is not quite so easy. If you > need help with > > these, you can send me and e-mail and I can explain the > techniques that > > I've used for these objects. > > > > Shane Kerr <shane(a)ripe.net> > > Database Software Engineer > > RIPE NCC > > +31 20 535 4427 > > > > p.s. This is actually a feature, not an bug. :) > > > > p.p.s. It has been argued (by me) that RPSL allows objects that are > > logically impossible, but the RFC authors don't seem to think so! > > > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet wrote: > > > > > Hi Gilles, > > > > > > I guess we wouldn't be able to check against those > accidents at the time > > > of a DB _update_... > > > > > > But checking the RR internal _data_ consistency could > maybe become part > > > of the RIS (or similar) project? > > > > > > Henk, any comments? > > > > > > An interesting aside: I guess similar problems could occur with > > > RPSL-based RRs? > > > > > > -WW > > > > _________________________________:____________________________ > _________ > > > Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at > > > UniVie Computer Center - ACOnet : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 > > > Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 > > > A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB: WW144, PGP > keyID 0xF0ACB369 > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > To: staff(a)ip.tele.dk, peering(a)tli.de, ip-oper(a)tli.de, > admin-c(a)tli.de > > > CC: farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr, db-wg(a)ripe.net, routing-wg(a)ripe.net > > > Subject: Loop in AS macro > > > Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:28:15 +0100 > > > From: Gilles Farrache <farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr> > > > > > > Dear database managers, > > > > > > I notice a loop in the followings AS-MACRO, in fact > AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL > > > is calling AS-TLI which is calling AS-TELEDK which is > calling AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL. > > > (and all that make that our automatic filter generation > tool fails) > > > > > > Could you correct those macro and will the Ripe database > management provide any > > > control on that kind of loop ? > > > > > > Gilles > > > > > > as-macro: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL > > > descr: Tele Danmark customers outside Denmark > > > as-list: AS1902 AS12461 > > > as-list: AS8881 AS-KOMTEL > > > as-list: AS13194 AS-BITE > > > as-list: AS6709 > > > as-list: AS8650 AS-TLI > > > as-list: AS8542 > > > as-list: AS12294 AS-TSUA AS6807 AS8349 AS12788 > AS12837 AS12872 AS13249 AS15386 AS15497 AS15929 AS16007 > > > as-list: AS12546 > > > as-list: AS15389 > > > tech-c: AS5071-RIPE > > > admin-c: AS5071-RIPE > > > notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk > > > notify: peering(a)tli.de > > > mnt-by: AS3292-MNT > > > changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001103 > > > changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20001117 > > > changed: tee(a)tdk.dk 20001123 > > > changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001228 > > > changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20010109 > > > source: RIPE > > > > > > as-macro: AS-TLI > > > descr: Talkline GmbH, Internet Division > > > descr: List of ASes according to Talkline Internet (AS8650) > > > descr: and customers > > > as-list: AS5605 > > > as-list: AS6783 > > > as-list: AS8650 > > > as-list: AS8881 > > > as-list: AS12461 > > > as-list: AS12546 > > > as-list: AS-TELEDK > > > as-list: AS-GLOBAL > > > tech-c: TLIP1-RIPE > > > admin-c: TLIP1-RIPE > > > notify: peering(a)tli.de > > > mnt-by: TALKLINE-MNT > > > changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19990923 > > > changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991020 > > > changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991025 > > > changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001023 > > > changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001025 > > > source: RIPE > > > > > > as-macro: AS-TELEDK > > > descr: Tele Danmark and Tele Danmark customers > > > as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKDANISH > > > as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL > > > as-list: AS-BELBONEMEMBERS > > > as-list: AS-GLOBAL > > > tech-c: AS5071-RIPE > > > admin-c: AS5071-RIPE > > > notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk > > > notify: peering(a)tli.de > > > mnt-by: AS3292-MNT > > > changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19990922 > > > changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991019 > > > changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991025 > > > changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991210 > > > changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20000903 > > > source: RIPE > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Cengiz > > -- > Cengiz Alaettinoglu Packet Design Inc. > >

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inetnum update
by Panagiotis Skoulikaritis 11 Jan '01

11 Jan '01

Hi, I am new to this list and would like to ask a (maybe stupid) question to the dicussion: how can I update the inetnum object in the database. The company I work for got a new allocation and they asked me to update the database, I' new to the company and I have no prior experience in managing/updating the database objects. If anyone could help me it would be appreciated. Thanks Panagiotis

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Re: inetnum update
by RIPE NCC Staff 11 Jan '01

11 Jan '01

Dear Panagiotis Skoulikaritis, Information on creating, updating and deleting objects in the RIPE Network Management Database is available from: <http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-157.html> <ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-157.ps> <ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-157.txt> with a supplement available at: <http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-189.html> <ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-189.ps> <ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-189.txt> Help on using <auto-dbm(a)ripe.net> is available by sending an e-mail to <auto-dbm(a)ripe.net> with HELP in the Subject line. Help on using whois is available by doing whois -h whois.ripe.net HELP If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to contact <ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net>. Regards, Engin Gunduz -------------------------------- RIPE NCC Database Administration Original Message follows: ------------------------- This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_016E_01C07BD1.1453C730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I am new to this list and would like to ask a (maybe stupid) = question to the dicussion: how can I update the inetnum object in the database. The company I work = for got a new allocation and they asked me to update the database, I' = new to the company and I have no prior experience in managing/updating = the database objects. If anyone could help me it would be appreciated. Thanks=20 Panagiotis ------=_NextPart_000_016E_01C07BD1.1453C730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-7"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>Hi, I am new to this list and would = like to ask a=20 (maybe stupid) question to the dicussion:<BR></FONT>how can I = update the=20 inetnum object in the database.  The company I work for got a new=20 allocation and they asked me to update the database,  I' new to the = company=20 and I have no prior experience in managing/updating the database = objects. =20 If anyone could help me it would be appreciated.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Panagiotis</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_016E_01C07BD1.1453C730--

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RE: Loop in AS macro
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 10 Jan '01

10 Jan '01

Hi Gilles, I guess we wouldn't be able to check against those accidents at the time of a DB _update_... But checking the RR internal _data_ consistency could maybe become part of the RIS (or similar) project? Henk, any comments? An interesting aside: I guess similar problems could occur with RPSL-based RRs? -WW _________________________________:_____________________________________ Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at UniVie Computer Center - ACOnet : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB: WW144, PGP keyID 0xF0ACB369 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To: staff(a)ip.tele.dk, peering(a)tli.de, ip-oper(a)tli.de, admin-c(a)tli.de CC: farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr, db-wg(a)ripe.net, routing-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Loop in AS macro Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:28:15 +0100 From: Gilles Farrache <farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr> Dear database managers, I notice a loop in the followings AS-MACRO, in fact AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL is calling AS-TLI which is calling AS-TELEDK which is calling AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL. (and all that make that our automatic filter generation tool fails) Could you correct those macro and will the Ripe database management provide any control on that kind of loop ? Gilles as-macro: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL descr: Tele Danmark customers outside Denmark as-list: AS1902 AS12461 as-list: AS8881 AS-KOMTEL as-list: AS13194 AS-BITE as-list: AS6709 as-list: AS8650 AS-TLI as-list: AS8542 as-list: AS12294 AS-TSUA AS6807 AS8349 AS12788 AS12837 AS12872 AS13249 AS15386 AS15497 AS15929 AS16007 as-list: AS12546 as-list: AS15389 tech-c: AS5071-RIPE admin-c: AS5071-RIPE notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: AS3292-MNT changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001103 changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20001117 changed: tee(a)tdk.dk 20001123 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001228 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20010109 source: RIPE as-macro: AS-TLI descr: Talkline GmbH, Internet Division descr: List of ASes according to Talkline Internet (AS8650) descr: and customers as-list: AS5605 as-list: AS6783 as-list: AS8650 as-list: AS8881 as-list: AS12461 as-list: AS12546 as-list: AS-TELEDK as-list: AS-GLOBAL tech-c: TLIP1-RIPE admin-c: TLIP1-RIPE notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: TALKLINE-MNT changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19990923 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991020 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991025 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001023 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001025 source: RIPE as-macro: AS-TELEDK descr: Tele Danmark and Tele Danmark customers as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKDANISH as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL as-list: AS-BELBONEMEMBERS as-list: AS-GLOBAL tech-c: AS5071-RIPE admin-c: AS5071-RIPE notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: AS3292-MNT changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19990922 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991019 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991025 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991210 changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20000903 source: RIPE --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Loop in AS macro
by Christian Storch 10 Jan '01

10 Jan '01

Please don't say 'include'. - What about "expand" as Shane used it already? So think about a macro as a set of AS'es and only form the set union of it. Every AS should be a set of size 1 and a macro a set of size n. As a result you would get an infinite iteration but A = B! So if somebody would suggest it to be nonsense, what about Pi etc.? ;-)) I think a script has only to expand a macro and to insert it into a list of already expanded macros. ... Christian -----Original Message----- From: Gilles Farrache [SMTP:farrache@cc.in2p3.fr] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 12:17 PM To: Shane Kerr Cc: Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet; farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr; db-wg(a)ripe.net; routing-wg(a)ripe.net; Henk.Uijterwaal(a)ripe.net; farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr; Jesper Skriver Subject: Re: Loop in AS macro Shane and al, When I was at school (a long time ago) I learn what was called the "set theory" ( "Theorie des ensembles" in French) that was part of what was called the NEW Mathematics. In those courses I learned that : If set A is included in set B and if set B was included in set A then A = B. Whet your telling me is that there are New New mathematics (as there is a new economy) in which : if set A is included in set B and set B included in set A that does not implie A = B. I am very interrested by that theory and will be happy that you give me some pointers to it. :-) Or what is an AS-MACRO ? It is a set of AS (or a set of set of AS ....). So they have to follow the set theory. Gilles

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Loop in AS macro
by Gilles Farrache 10 Jan '01

10 Jan '01

Dear database managers, I notice a loop in the followings AS-MACRO, in fact AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL is calling AS-TLI which is calling AS-TELEDK which is calling AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL. (and all that make that our automatic filter generation tool fails) Could you correct those macro and will the Ripe database management provide any control on that kind of loop ? Gilles as-macro: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL descr: Tele Danmark customers outside Denmark as-list: AS1902 AS12461 as-list: AS8881 AS-KOMTEL as-list: AS13194 AS-BITE as-list: AS6709 as-list: AS8650 AS-TLI as-list: AS8542 as-list: AS12294 AS-TSUA AS6807 AS8349 AS12788 AS12837 AS12872 AS13249 AS15386 AS15497 AS15929 AS16007 as-list: AS12546 as-list: AS15389 tech-c: AS5071-RIPE admin-c: AS5071-RIPE notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: AS3292-MNT changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001103 changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20001117 changed: tee(a)tdk.dk 20001123 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001228 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20010109 source: RIPE as-macro: AS-TLI descr: Talkline GmbH, Internet Division descr: List of ASes according to Talkline Internet (AS8650) descr: and customers as-list: AS5605 as-list: AS6783 as-list: AS8650 as-list: AS8881 as-list: AS12461 as-list: AS12546 as-list: AS-TELEDK as-list: AS-GLOBAL tech-c: TLIP1-RIPE admin-c: TLIP1-RIPE notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: TALKLINE-MNT changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19990923 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991020 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991025 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001023 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001025 source: RIPE as-macro: AS-TELEDK descr: Tele Danmark and Tele Danmark customers as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKDANISH as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL as-list: AS-BELBONEMEMBERS as-list: AS-GLOBAL tech-c: AS5071-RIPE admin-c: AS5071-RIPE notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: AS3292-MNT changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19990922 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991019 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991025 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991210 changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20000903 source: RIPE

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RIPE Whois RPSL Migration
by RIPE NCC 21 Dec '00

21 Dec '00

[ Apologies for duplicate mails ] RIPE Whois RPSL Migration The RIPE Database re-implementation project is nearing completion. A key feature of the new database is the implementation of RPSL, to replace the old RIPE-181 standard. RPSL is similar, but not identical, to RIPE-181. The RIPE NCC expects that many programs that use the RIPE Whois database will continue to operate properly without modification. However, some programs may have problems parsing the RPSL format, or be confused by differences in behaviour. We would like to ensure that the transition to RPSL is as easy as possible. Therefore, we are working with the RIPE community to provide resources you can use to check any programs or scripts that you have that use the RIPE Whois database. Please visit our Migration page for further information: http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/pub-services/db/rpsl/index.html This page will be updated regularly with the latest information. We will provide additional tools and information as they become available. The actual timeline of when the RPSL server will replace the existing RIPE-181 server will be decided at the RIPE-38 meeting. If you want input on when the change will occur, then you should either attend this meeting or post your comments on the RIPE DB mailing list. http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/current/ripe-38/index.html http://www.ripe.net/ripe/wg/db/index.html Regards, The RIPE Database Group. RIPE NCC

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Announcement: RIPE Whois Database version 3.0 beta is out
by RIPE Database Administration 08 Dec '00

08 Dec '00

Dear All, [ Apologies for duplicate messages ] This mail is to inform you that version 3.0 beta of the RIPE Whois Database is out. Read on! You will be affected too. The RIPE Database is about to change its data format, from RIPE181 to RPSL (the Routing Policy Specification Language, see RFC2622). This will affect all object types, including "person", "domain" and "inetnum". The version 2 of the RIPE Database, the one currently in production on whois.ripe.net, will in the next months be replaced by version 3. All the entries in the RIPE Database will be translated into RPSL format, and that is the format you will get when you will be querying the Database. Don't be mistaken: for the moment, whois.ripe.net continues running with version 2 and answering to your queries in the old-fashioned way. But this will not last forever; in a few months, all will become RPSL. So if you use the Whois database, we encourage all of you to prepare for this change as soon as possible. We strongly suggest you to start to get used to RPSL and version 3.0 . In this aim, you can do the following: - Query rpsl.ripe.net at port 43. You will find there exactly the same objects that are in whois.ripe.net, mirrored live and in RPSL format. - If you have any script that runs by querying whois.ripe.net, test it by pointing it to rpsl.ripe.net and make it v3.0-compliant. - Try our CGI interface to the RPSL server: you can find it at http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/pub-services/db/reimp/. - Get to know the new update path: use our "sandbox" database for RPSL updates. Send your updates to <auto-rip(a)ripe.net> and query the corresponding database at rpsl.ripe.net, port 4343 . Remember that in a few months, that's the way the RIPE Database will be running; so the earlier you start working with it, the less likely you are to be unpleasantly surprised later. We are currently preparing additional resources to help ease the transition; we will announce them as soon as they are available, which will happen later this month. Please note that the software is still in a "beta" phase. So we need your feedback! If you happen to find something that looks like a bug when you are testing the RPSL database, don't hesitate... Send us a bug report at <dbrip(a)ripe.net> ! If you want to actively participate to the migration effort, you could join the "RIP migration Task force" and let yourself be heard. Just write to <ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net> and ask to join the Task Force. For the ones interested in viewing or trying the code, you can download it at: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/reimp/whois-rip-3.0beta1.tar.gz You can also join a discussion list related to version 3.0 beta of the RIPE Database Software. To subscribe to this list, send a message to <majordomo(a)ripe.net> with the line: subscribe db-beta in the body of your letter. It is a moderated mailing list so some delays in subscription are possible. Regards, The RIPE Database Group.

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Re: Privacy, Broadband, & the Database
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 01 Dec '00

01 Dec '00

I've tried to sort some of the various aspects/expectations. Lets see.... => It depends on the level of "responsibility" and functionality granted to => and exercised by that end site. As I've said in a private mail already, => we should ask the question about the usefulness of "assigning" (in the => good old sense) very small amounts of addresses to sites which are tied => in to the services of their provider anyway. I guess most of the ADSL, => dial-up, cable-TV connection assignments sh/could be reviewed from that => point of view. = =The name and address info in the RIPE database needs to contain the =person (or organisation) responsible for a certain amount of IP space, =in my opinion. = =So, if an ISP wants to be responsible for the IP space it hands out to =customers, then the ISP should be free to fill in their own name and =address. This gives ISPs the freedom to fill the RIPE db with names =and addresses of customers (that saves them the hassle of dealing with =for example abuse coming from that site), or putting their own name =in it (meaning they have to respond actively to for example abuse reports, =which is the ISP's job anyway). 1) IP-Addresses are taken from a globally unique pool. Thus the global Internet community expects to have access to publicly accessible registry data to query the status (unassigned/reserved - allocated - assigned) for a particular address or address block or other unique resource. 2) The contact information listed for the individual resource serves 2 purposes: a) it offers info to get in contact with a human being to resolve connectivity problems (IP or application layer) between end sites b) it offers info to get in touch with a human being in case of operational problems that have an unwanted impact on the performance or security of networks other than the source of the problem (routing issues, spam, abuse). Ref: 1: While I still think that the open availability of that info is essential for the responsible and continued operation of the Internet, it can be argued whether contact info to get in touch with a human being has to be publicly available. In the long run, we probably have to deal with the authorities in one way or another (on a national and international level), to get the existence and maintainance of such a global registry recognized and endorsed. Ref: 2)a): While "we" certainly have become comfortable with the notion of being able to "talk" to everyone who is on the net (to resolve operational problems for our own applications or customers), we might have to let go here - and also to openly tell *our* customers, that we cannot help in case of problems when the "other end" opts to remain anonymous (by requesting contact info to be suppressed or, better yet, not to be collected at all). Ref: 2)b): I think it is - as much a resonable expectation held by all people and sites and backbones on the net that their network(s) can be protected against misuse (proactively), or that any incidents can be resolved quickly and easily, - as it might be reasonable to request anonymity on the net for end sites. I guess we have similar situations in real life, where there is a conflict of expectations and interests between the individual and the community, like . license plates on vehicles to follow up on violation of rules, . a public registry for real estate ownership to settle ownership claims . or to track down the owners in case the patch of land becomes a source of danger or nuisance for neighbours, . registries for companies, their legal representatives and financial backing (which many would certainly prefer not to disclose :-) . registries for the address of citizens in case they do not live up to contractual obligations So, would we be better off by following up on our "IRT-pointer" proposal and then offer the alternative to supply - *either* the end users's contact information - *or* the contact information for an IRT that has accepted responsibility for the operational use of that resource? In most cases, and for small end-user sites, this would be ISP staff, anyway. Having a certain resource listed in the registry without any contact information (neither individual contact nor IRT/ISP contact) should be seen as a _strong_ hint to exercise strong care in dealing with that site - by applying whatever means available to minimize the impact of misconfiguration and/or attacks originating from those sites. This could indeed limit the usefulness of those resources on a global scale, much like you are allowed to obtain and drive a vehicle without registration and thus without a license plate on private property - but this vehicle gets filtered or blocked on any public road :-) Comments? Wilfried. _________________________________:_____________________________________ Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at UniVie Computer Center - ACOnet : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB: WW144, PGP keyID 0xF0ACB369 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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