- db-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: inetnum update
by RIPE NCC Staff 11 Jan '01

11 Jan '01

Dear Panagiotis Skoulikaritis, Information on creating, updating and deleting objects in the RIPE Network Management Database is available from: <http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-157.html> <ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-157.ps> <ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-157.txt> with a supplement available at: <http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-189.html> <ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-189.ps> <ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-189.txt> Help on using <auto-dbm(a)ripe.net> is available by sending an e-mail to <auto-dbm(a)ripe.net> with HELP in the Subject line. Help on using whois is available by doing whois -h whois.ripe.net HELP If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to contact <ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net>. Regards, Engin Gunduz -------------------------------- RIPE NCC Database Administration Original Message follows: ------------------------- This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_016E_01C07BD1.1453C730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I am new to this list and would like to ask a (maybe stupid) = question to the dicussion: how can I update the inetnum object in the database. The company I work = for got a new allocation and they asked me to update the database, I' = new to the company and I have no prior experience in managing/updating = the database objects. If anyone could help me it would be appreciated. Thanks=20 Panagiotis ------=_NextPart_000_016E_01C07BD1.1453C730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-7"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>Hi, I am new to this list and would = like to ask a=20 (maybe stupid) question to the dicussion:<BR></FONT>how can I = update the=20 inetnum object in the database.  The company I work for got a new=20 allocation and they asked me to update the database,  I' new to the = company=20 and I have no prior experience in managing/updating the database = objects. =20 If anyone could help me it would be appreciated.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Panagiotis</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_016E_01C07BD1.1453C730--

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RE: Loop in AS macro
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 10 Jan '01

10 Jan '01

Hi Gilles, I guess we wouldn't be able to check against those accidents at the time of a DB _update_... But checking the RR internal _data_ consistency could maybe become part of the RIS (or similar) project? Henk, any comments? An interesting aside: I guess similar problems could occur with RPSL-based RRs? -WW _________________________________:_____________________________________ Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at UniVie Computer Center - ACOnet : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB: WW144, PGP keyID 0xF0ACB369 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To: staff(a)ip.tele.dk, peering(a)tli.de, ip-oper(a)tli.de, admin-c(a)tli.de CC: farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr, db-wg(a)ripe.net, routing-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Loop in AS macro Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:28:15 +0100 From: Gilles Farrache <farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr> Dear database managers, I notice a loop in the followings AS-MACRO, in fact AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL is calling AS-TLI which is calling AS-TELEDK which is calling AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL. (and all that make that our automatic filter generation tool fails) Could you correct those macro and will the Ripe database management provide any control on that kind of loop ? Gilles as-macro: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL descr: Tele Danmark customers outside Denmark as-list: AS1902 AS12461 as-list: AS8881 AS-KOMTEL as-list: AS13194 AS-BITE as-list: AS6709 as-list: AS8650 AS-TLI as-list: AS8542 as-list: AS12294 AS-TSUA AS6807 AS8349 AS12788 AS12837 AS12872 AS13249 AS15386 AS15497 AS15929 AS16007 as-list: AS12546 as-list: AS15389 tech-c: AS5071-RIPE admin-c: AS5071-RIPE notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: AS3292-MNT changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001103 changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20001117 changed: tee(a)tdk.dk 20001123 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001228 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20010109 source: RIPE as-macro: AS-TLI descr: Talkline GmbH, Internet Division descr: List of ASes according to Talkline Internet (AS8650) descr: and customers as-list: AS5605 as-list: AS6783 as-list: AS8650 as-list: AS8881 as-list: AS12461 as-list: AS12546 as-list: AS-TELEDK as-list: AS-GLOBAL tech-c: TLIP1-RIPE admin-c: TLIP1-RIPE notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: TALKLINE-MNT changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19990923 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991020 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991025 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001023 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001025 source: RIPE as-macro: AS-TELEDK descr: Tele Danmark and Tele Danmark customers as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKDANISH as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL as-list: AS-BELBONEMEMBERS as-list: AS-GLOBAL tech-c: AS5071-RIPE admin-c: AS5071-RIPE notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: AS3292-MNT changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19990922 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991019 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991025 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991210 changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20000903 source: RIPE --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Loop in AS macro
by Christian Storch 10 Jan '01

10 Jan '01

Please don't say 'include'. - What about "expand" as Shane used it already? So think about a macro as a set of AS'es and only form the set union of it. Every AS should be a set of size 1 and a macro a set of size n. As a result you would get an infinite iteration but A = B! So if somebody would suggest it to be nonsense, what about Pi etc.? ;-)) I think a script has only to expand a macro and to insert it into a list of already expanded macros. ... Christian -----Original Message----- From: Gilles Farrache [SMTP:farrache@cc.in2p3.fr] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 12:17 PM To: Shane Kerr Cc: Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet; farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr; db-wg(a)ripe.net; routing-wg(a)ripe.net; Henk.Uijterwaal(a)ripe.net; farrache(a)cc.in2p3.fr; Jesper Skriver Subject: Re: Loop in AS macro Shane and al, When I was at school (a long time ago) I learn what was called the "set theory" ( "Theorie des ensembles" in French) that was part of what was called the NEW Mathematics. In those courses I learned that : If set A is included in set B and if set B was included in set A then A = B. Whet your telling me is that there are New New mathematics (as there is a new economy) in which : if set A is included in set B and set B included in set A that does not implie A = B. I am very interrested by that theory and will be happy that you give me some pointers to it. :-) Or what is an AS-MACRO ? It is a set of AS (or a set of set of AS ....). So they have to follow the set theory. Gilles

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Loop in AS macro
by Gilles Farrache 10 Jan '01

10 Jan '01

Dear database managers, I notice a loop in the followings AS-MACRO, in fact AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL is calling AS-TLI which is calling AS-TELEDK which is calling AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL. (and all that make that our automatic filter generation tool fails) Could you correct those macro and will the Ripe database management provide any control on that kind of loop ? Gilles as-macro: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL descr: Tele Danmark customers outside Denmark as-list: AS1902 AS12461 as-list: AS8881 AS-KOMTEL as-list: AS13194 AS-BITE as-list: AS6709 as-list: AS8650 AS-TLI as-list: AS8542 as-list: AS12294 AS-TSUA AS6807 AS8349 AS12788 AS12837 AS12872 AS13249 AS15386 AS15497 AS15929 AS16007 as-list: AS12546 as-list: AS15389 tech-c: AS5071-RIPE admin-c: AS5071-RIPE notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: AS3292-MNT changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001103 changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20001117 changed: tee(a)tdk.dk 20001123 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20001228 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 20010109 source: RIPE as-macro: AS-TLI descr: Talkline GmbH, Internet Division descr: List of ASes according to Talkline Internet (AS8650) descr: and customers as-list: AS5605 as-list: AS6783 as-list: AS8650 as-list: AS8881 as-list: AS12461 as-list: AS12546 as-list: AS-TELEDK as-list: AS-GLOBAL tech-c: TLIP1-RIPE admin-c: TLIP1-RIPE notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: TALKLINE-MNT changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19990923 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991020 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 19991025 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001023 changed: thomas(a)tli.de 20001025 source: RIPE as-macro: AS-TELEDK descr: Tele Danmark and Tele Danmark customers as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKDANISH as-list: AS-TELEDANMARKINTERNATIONAL as-list: AS-BELBONEMEMBERS as-list: AS-GLOBAL tech-c: AS5071-RIPE admin-c: AS5071-RIPE notify: staff(a)ip.tele.dk notify: peering(a)tli.de mnt-by: AS3292-MNT changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19990922 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991019 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991025 changed: jesper(a)skriver.dk 19991210 changed: toba(a)tdk.dk 20000903 source: RIPE

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RIPE Whois RPSL Migration
by RIPE NCC 21 Dec '00

21 Dec '00

[ Apologies for duplicate mails ] RIPE Whois RPSL Migration The RIPE Database re-implementation project is nearing completion. A key feature of the new database is the implementation of RPSL, to replace the old RIPE-181 standard. RPSL is similar, but not identical, to RIPE-181. The RIPE NCC expects that many programs that use the RIPE Whois database will continue to operate properly without modification. However, some programs may have problems parsing the RPSL format, or be confused by differences in behaviour. We would like to ensure that the transition to RPSL is as easy as possible. Therefore, we are working with the RIPE community to provide resources you can use to check any programs or scripts that you have that use the RIPE Whois database. Please visit our Migration page for further information: http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/pub-services/db/rpsl/index.html This page will be updated regularly with the latest information. We will provide additional tools and information as they become available. The actual timeline of when the RPSL server will replace the existing RIPE-181 server will be decided at the RIPE-38 meeting. If you want input on when the change will occur, then you should either attend this meeting or post your comments on the RIPE DB mailing list. http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/current/ripe-38/index.html http://www.ripe.net/ripe/wg/db/index.html Regards, The RIPE Database Group. RIPE NCC

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Announcement: RIPE Whois Database version 3.0 beta is out
by RIPE Database Administration 08 Dec '00

08 Dec '00

Dear All, [ Apologies for duplicate messages ] This mail is to inform you that version 3.0 beta of the RIPE Whois Database is out. Read on! You will be affected too. The RIPE Database is about to change its data format, from RIPE181 to RPSL (the Routing Policy Specification Language, see RFC2622). This will affect all object types, including "person", "domain" and "inetnum". The version 2 of the RIPE Database, the one currently in production on whois.ripe.net, will in the next months be replaced by version 3. All the entries in the RIPE Database will be translated into RPSL format, and that is the format you will get when you will be querying the Database. Don't be mistaken: for the moment, whois.ripe.net continues running with version 2 and answering to your queries in the old-fashioned way. But this will not last forever; in a few months, all will become RPSL. So if you use the Whois database, we encourage all of you to prepare for this change as soon as possible. We strongly suggest you to start to get used to RPSL and version 3.0 . In this aim, you can do the following: - Query rpsl.ripe.net at port 43. You will find there exactly the same objects that are in whois.ripe.net, mirrored live and in RPSL format. - If you have any script that runs by querying whois.ripe.net, test it by pointing it to rpsl.ripe.net and make it v3.0-compliant. - Try our CGI interface to the RPSL server: you can find it at http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/pub-services/db/reimp/. - Get to know the new update path: use our "sandbox" database for RPSL updates. Send your updates to <auto-rip(a)ripe.net> and query the corresponding database at rpsl.ripe.net, port 4343 . Remember that in a few months, that's the way the RIPE Database will be running; so the earlier you start working with it, the less likely you are to be unpleasantly surprised later. We are currently preparing additional resources to help ease the transition; we will announce them as soon as they are available, which will happen later this month. Please note that the software is still in a "beta" phase. So we need your feedback! If you happen to find something that looks like a bug when you are testing the RPSL database, don't hesitate... Send us a bug report at <dbrip(a)ripe.net> ! If you want to actively participate to the migration effort, you could join the "RIP migration Task force" and let yourself be heard. Just write to <ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net> and ask to join the Task Force. For the ones interested in viewing or trying the code, you can download it at: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/reimp/whois-rip-3.0beta1.tar.gz You can also join a discussion list related to version 3.0 beta of the RIPE Database Software. To subscribe to this list, send a message to <majordomo(a)ripe.net> with the line: subscribe db-beta in the body of your letter. It is a moderated mailing list so some delays in subscription are possible. Regards, The RIPE Database Group.

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Re: Privacy, Broadband, & the Database
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 01 Dec '00

01 Dec '00

I've tried to sort some of the various aspects/expectations. Lets see.... => It depends on the level of "responsibility" and functionality granted to => and exercised by that end site. As I've said in a private mail already, => we should ask the question about the usefulness of "assigning" (in the => good old sense) very small amounts of addresses to sites which are tied => in to the services of their provider anyway. I guess most of the ADSL, => dial-up, cable-TV connection assignments sh/could be reviewed from that => point of view. = =The name and address info in the RIPE database needs to contain the =person (or organisation) responsible for a certain amount of IP space, =in my opinion. = =So, if an ISP wants to be responsible for the IP space it hands out to =customers, then the ISP should be free to fill in their own name and =address. This gives ISPs the freedom to fill the RIPE db with names =and addresses of customers (that saves them the hassle of dealing with =for example abuse coming from that site), or putting their own name =in it (meaning they have to respond actively to for example abuse reports, =which is the ISP's job anyway). 1) IP-Addresses are taken from a globally unique pool. Thus the global Internet community expects to have access to publicly accessible registry data to query the status (unassigned/reserved - allocated - assigned) for a particular address or address block or other unique resource. 2) The contact information listed for the individual resource serves 2 purposes: a) it offers info to get in contact with a human being to resolve connectivity problems (IP or application layer) between end sites b) it offers info to get in touch with a human being in case of operational problems that have an unwanted impact on the performance or security of networks other than the source of the problem (routing issues, spam, abuse). Ref: 1: While I still think that the open availability of that info is essential for the responsible and continued operation of the Internet, it can be argued whether contact info to get in touch with a human being has to be publicly available. In the long run, we probably have to deal with the authorities in one way or another (on a national and international level), to get the existence and maintainance of such a global registry recognized and endorsed. Ref: 2)a): While "we" certainly have become comfortable with the notion of being able to "talk" to everyone who is on the net (to resolve operational problems for our own applications or customers), we might have to let go here - and also to openly tell *our* customers, that we cannot help in case of problems when the "other end" opts to remain anonymous (by requesting contact info to be suppressed or, better yet, not to be collected at all). Ref: 2)b): I think it is - as much a resonable expectation held by all people and sites and backbones on the net that their network(s) can be protected against misuse (proactively), or that any incidents can be resolved quickly and easily, - as it might be reasonable to request anonymity on the net for end sites. I guess we have similar situations in real life, where there is a conflict of expectations and interests between the individual and the community, like . license plates on vehicles to follow up on violation of rules, . a public registry for real estate ownership to settle ownership claims . or to track down the owners in case the patch of land becomes a source of danger or nuisance for neighbours, . registries for companies, their legal representatives and financial backing (which many would certainly prefer not to disclose :-) . registries for the address of citizens in case they do not live up to contractual obligations So, would we be better off by following up on our "IRT-pointer" proposal and then offer the alternative to supply - *either* the end users's contact information - *or* the contact information for an IRT that has accepted responsibility for the operational use of that resource? In most cases, and for small end-user sites, this would be ISP staff, anyway. Having a certain resource listed in the registry without any contact information (neither individual contact nor IRT/ISP contact) should be seen as a _strong_ hint to exercise strong care in dealing with that site - by applying whatever means available to minimize the impact of misconfiguration and/or attacks originating from those sites. This could indeed limit the usefulness of those resources on a global scale, much like you are allowed to obtain and drive a vehicle without registration and thus without a license plate on private property - but this vehicle gets filtered or blocked on any public road :-) Comments? Wilfried. _________________________________:_____________________________________ Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at UniVie Computer Center - ACOnet : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB: WW144, PGP keyID 0xF0ACB369 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Privacy, Broadband, & the Database
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 30 Nov '00

30 Nov '00

=> I'm writing for your opinions, suggestions, and comments regarding updating => the RIPE database with assignments made for broadband (xDSL) customers. As => you may or may not be aware, ADSL is now being offered in the UK, which => has very strict data protection laws. We offer ADSL services as a NATted = =IP addresses and data related to them is international resource. =I don't think you should apply any law in UK when we talk about =RIPE(.int) resources. But that doesn't mean the people *collecting* customer related info *and transferring that data to somewhere abroad* would be exempt from local laws. Quite the opposite holds true for many (most?) countries... =I assume we are still supposed to maintain single nic-hdl per person. =What's the plan now, if my LIR would need to refer to the same contact =person? It doesn't make sense to direct any calls to your LIR, if the =problem lies at customer network at our LIR's addresses. It depends on the level of "responsibility" and functionality granted to and exercised by that end site. As I've said in a private mail already, we should ask the question about the usefulness of "assigning" (in the good old sense) very small amounts of addresses to sites which are tied in to the services of their provider anyway. I guess most of the ADSL, dial-up, cable-TV connection assignments sh/could be reviewed from that point of view. => phone: +44-845-272-0444 => remarks: Phone is Demon Internet Helpdesk = =The same rule should apply to all assignments. If a (home) network =contact person doesn't want to be 'listed', s/he can try to live =without real network and buy NAT from a provider. That's a very valid point. =If people think RIPE db contains too much sensitive information, =I would rather see the query results restricted somehow. For example =operators (LIRs) could have full query access, and the others =could merely receive pointers to the LIR for further information. This idea happens to pop always now and then, again and again. the last time I heard a proposal along those lines was at the Brisbane APNIC meeting. I then asked the following question: "So you are going to collect information, but you are going to hide it. Fair enough. Have you thought about criteria and/or mechanisms to disclose that information, either to entites with a "valid" interest and/or to law enforcement?" I did not receive a useful answer. Just as a virtual poll - would anyone in the RIPE region care to propose criteria and/or mechanism? Wilfried. _________________________________:_____________________________________ Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at UniVie Computer Center - ACOnet : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB: WW144, PGP keyID 0xF0ACB369 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Problems with windows? re-boot! Problems with unix? be root!

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Re: Privacy, Broadband, & the Database
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 30 Nov '00

30 Nov '00

>The name and address info in the RIPE database needs to contain the >person (or organisation) responsible for a certain amount of IP space, >in my opinion. I agreee, and the important word here is "responsible". >So, if an ISP wants to be responsible for the IP space it hands out to >customers, then the ISP should be free to fill in their own name and >address. Doing that means that an assignment (*to the customer*, in the traditional sense) has not been performed. >This gives ISPs the freedom to fill the RIPE db with names >and addresses of customers (that saves them the hassle of dealing with >for example abuse coming from that site), or putting their own name >in it (meaning they have to respond actively to for example abuse reports, >which is the ISP's job anyway). This is very similar to my reasoning regarding the usefulness of performing an assignment for a (small) site which does not fully (independently and in a responsible way) manage their address space. Wilfried.

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Privacy, Broadband, & the Database
by Sam Bradford 29 Nov '00

29 Nov '00

Hello all. (Apologies if you got a 'subscribe' message from me earlier. I wasn't thinking about Majordomo for some reason.) I'm writing for your opinions, suggestions, and comments regarding updating the RIPE database with assignments made for broadband (xDSL) customers. As you may or may not be aware, ADSL is now being offered in the UK, which has very strict data protection laws. We offer ADSL services as a NATted service (with one large entry in the RIPE database like for dial-up customers) and a non-NAT service that includes an IP assignment. Our concern is that a large percentage of our non-NAT ADSL customers are either home users or home businesses. Updating the RIPE database with an IP assignment requires an end-user Admin contact, and the person object requires a telephone number. Worst case scenario is that we update the database for a home business or a home user with the customer's telephone number, his teenage daughter enters a chat room, and you can imagine the rest... After brief consultation with the RIPE NCC Hostmasters, we have begun updating the database with our role object as Tech Contact and the customer as Admin contact. For the phone number, we are using our own, noting as much in a 'remarks' field. For example: inetnum: 62.49.8.64 - 62.49.8.79 netname: PYAR-ADSL descr: DEMON ADSL CUSTOMER country: GB admin-c: PY84-RIPE tech-c: DHG5-RIPE status: ASSIGNED PA notify: hostmaster(a)demon.net mnt-by: AS2529-MNT changed: hostmaster(a)demon.net 20001115 source: RIPE <snip DHG5-RIPE> person: Phil Yarranton address: GB phone: +44-845-272-0444 nic-hdl: PY84-RIPE remarks: Phone is Demon Internet Helpdesk notify: hostmaster(a)demon.net mnt-by: AS2529-MNT changed: hostmaster(a)demon.net 20001115 source: RIPE However, I'm not sure that is the best option, and could lead to inconsistency. At what point do we determine (and should we determine?) if an obvoius business customer is home-based or office-based? Should we have one set of rules for the database for leased line & ISDN customers and another for ADSL? Or one set for business customers (regardless of home-based or office-based) and another for home users? Looking forward to your comments. :-) Sam Bradford ----------------------------------------------------------------- sam bradford, senior hostmaster sam.bradford(a)demon.net Demon Internet / Thus plc . hostmaster(a)demon.net Tel: +44-845-272-0666 . . http://www.demon.net/ Fax: +44-20-8371-1285 t h u s http://www.thus.net/

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