- db-wg - mailman.ripe.net

(no subject)
by Sam J. H. Hamilton 22 Jun '98

22 Jun '98

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Re: how to proceed with changed:
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 10 Jun '98

10 Jun '98

Folks, ( for a moment wearing my hat as RIPE-DB chair ) I'm asking all of you to try to have an educated discussion of DB problems, proposals for changes and proposed solutions. Discussions about history, the relative merits(?) of spam and/or legal aspects is - I think - outside the scope of this mailing list. Please move to the appropriate fora to tackle these issues. Thank you very much for listening. Regards, Wilfried Woeber -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Vienna University : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : RIPE-DB (&NIC) Handle: WW144 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : PGP public key ID 0xF0ACB369 --------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: how to proceed with changed:
by kissg＠sztaki.hu 10 Jun '98

10 Jun '98

James Adridge wrote: > If people change jobs then it should be possible to perform an inverse query > on the changed field in the same way as the admin-c, tech-c, etc. to permit > updating of all affected records. I think active ripe-ops are also unhappy if spammed newbies send them tons of complaining mails. Remember this philosophy: | For legal reasons, anyone and everyone that is related to an IP Address | or related higher domains or IP routes are included in the anti-spam | message, that way noone can say later, they didn't know or weren't | notified about the law. These peoples doesn't know and doesn't want to know what is the difference between changed and admin-c fields. They just see Yet Another E-mail Address To Born. Which of you wants to be "anyone and everyone"? I definitely not. A new idea: Every "changed" field should contain <president(a)whitehouse.gov>. So the Secret Service or the FBI will explain politely all of these newbies, that Lenin was right when he said: "To learn, to learn, to learn" (before writing) :-) Regards Gabor

2 1

how to proceed with changed:
by Daniel Karrenberg 09 Jun '98

09 Jun '98

Let my try to summarise the discussion: 1) changed has a fuzzy definition, a more concise audit trail attribute should replace it. A concrete proposal is needed. David has already thought about this. Want to write it up. Do *not* call it changed:! 2) I porposed to exclude changed: from answers to normal queries. Present the changed attribute only when the query contains a special flag (like -c). The only serious problem with the proposal I have read so far is the comparison for deleting an object. This could be changed to exclude changed: attributes. Anything I am missing? Daniel

3 4

Re: "changed" field should be deleted
by Havard.Eidnes＠runit.sintef.no 09 Jun '98

09 Jun '98

> There is a general problem with publicly available email contact > information. I would prefer to solve the general problem. I'd say that if you are out to generalize, there is a general problem of SPAM. Why not solve that instead? 1/2 :-) Seriously, I think that effectively removing contact information from the database is much too similar to sawing off your foot at the knee because you have an itch in one of your toes. I mean, how long will it take before all and everyone needing (out of policy) or wanting to have their contact information publically available to install an auto-filter which will toss messages with "unknown" digital signatures ("of *any* kind"?)??? I think it'll be easier and quicker to deal with the SPAM problem itself before we get there. Besides, the contact information also currently serves as a means for anyone to get in touch with the domain holder or the technical administrator of the domain, in conjunction with e.g. security- related events (yes, I know, it's maybe not fully reliable, but what else is there?), and those messages, even if they were digitally signed, would probably come from an "unknown" key-holder. In all, I have serious misgivings about this general idea of removing contact information from the database. - Håvard

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"changed" field should be deleted
by kissg＠sztaki.hu 09 Jun '98

09 Jun '98

Dear folks, Nowadays I can see a new style of anti-spam fight. If the victim gets some junk mail, (s)he retrieves all database objects (including *rt) relative to ALL hosts, domains, and IP addresses that can be found in the mail header, and s(he) send complaining mails to ALL the fifty e-mail addresses found in the database objects (including the *ch field). :-( So these uneducated lamers multiply the amount of spam and harras a dozen of peoples who are not responsible for the original junk mail and the spam relays. The lamers cannot diffrentiate the "responsible persons" and those who maintain the database records itselves. My first radical suggestion is: Let's delete the *ch field from the database objects. However I know that there should be some info about the history of records. a few raw ideas: - modified database software that hides the *ch field. *ch's could be retrieved with some extra efforts only - some coded ID instead of e-mail address. Ordinary peoples couldn't decode it but authorized ripe-ops could. (E.g. via WWW or e-mail) This info shouldn't be public. What is your opinion? (Personally I've changed my jobs years ago but my e-mail address can be found in hundreds of *ch fields. So I hate the anti-spam spam as well than the spam itself.) Regards Gabor

8 14

Re: "changed" field should be deleted
by kissg＠sztaki.hu 08 Jun '98

08 Jun '98

> > "Other users" are not really interested in the real e-mail address > > of changer. This field is needed only by administrators who want to > > delete the object because they have to send back the exact copy of > > the record. > > "Other users" are at least interested in the latest modification date > and the address of someone to report problems to. When I find wrong > information (mostly bouncing email addresses) in an entry I usually > send a note to the address in the last "changed" line. This means you are not "other user". :-) Anybody who knows what the what is the changed field for is a guru. Gurus can put an extra switch in the whois query to retrieve the real list of changers. regards Gabor

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Re: "changed" field should be deleted
by Gerald Andrew Winters 06 Jun '98

06 Jun '98

from Michael van Elst <mlelstv(a)xlink.net> Hi, > > This would obviously help the registries but other users of the RIPE-DB > > might be left out by this solution. > > "Other users" are not really interested in the real e-mail address > of changer. This field is needed only by administrators who want to > delete the object because they have to send back the exact copy of > the record. well, that's a kind of broad statement comparable to the "no user would need more than 640k". Won't you think ? For me the changed records help to track down the person who modified the record and who could possibly tell what was changed and why it was changed. Of course you cannot trust the records, but it gives strong hints. from gerald(a)merit.edu In my mind it is tough to make the argument to keep email addresses in the changed field because it helps you know the person to make the last change. You can specify the "mnt-nfy:" attribute in the maintainer or "notify:" attribute in the object to have an email message sent which give the email header of the person who made the udpate. You always have a problem in situations like this when you want to make a change to the database registry to something that has been around a long time. There are always going to be users who don't want to change things for whatever reason. eg, I still have people tell me they use the old ANS "advisory:" field which I think has been obsoleted for quite some time now. So even a proposal to get rid of the "advisory:" field would meet with some resistence. My $0.02, the "changed:" field as it is is worse than useless. The information that goes in it right now belongs either in a "descr:" field if someone chooses or not in the db at all. And there is a legitimate privacy issue which needs to be addressed. I am in favor of keeping the "changed:" field. I feel it should contain the UTC machine generated time stamp of the last update and that's it. We would know the last update and I also feel we (someday) need a mechanism for dealing with legacy objects, ie, objects that have been abandoned. A *real* time stamp along with real routing announcement information would go a long way into dealing with this problem. --jerry

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Re: "changed" field should be deleted
by kissg＠sztaki.hu 06 Jun '98

06 Jun '98

> > Then the whole db software could be modified in such a way that > > it reponses just a fake line (changed: you-are(a)not.interested.in-it 990101) > > unless the query contains a "-C almost_secret_password_here" option. > > The so called "password" might be retrieved by e-mail > > from the RIPE NCC. > > This would obviously help the registries but other users of the RIPE-DB > might be left out by this solution. "Other users" are not really interested in the real e-mail address of changer. This field is needed only by administrators who want to delete the object because they have to send back the exact copy of the record. Regards Gabor

3 2

Re: "changed" field should be deleted
by kissg＠sztaki.hu 05 Jun '98

05 Jun '98

> > I agree that this needs attention. > > The whole changed: functionality should be reviewed. > > > > I agree that a short term measure could be to suppress changed > > information unless explicitly requested. This would also allow > > us to check the whois query logs for those requesting it ...;-). > > Does anyone know if this would break any knows scripts or uses > > of the database? > > > > Daniel > > Hiding the changed: lines definitely breaks every system that keeps > _copies_ of the entries because it is impossible to update entries > from these copies without trashing the existing entries. I guess the most of these uneducated users use the www interface of the RIPE-DB and not a client program. So in the first step it should be filtered out "changed" fields on the web. This probably doesn't effect the system you wrote about. Then the whole db software could be modified in such a way that it reponses just a fake line (changed: you-are(a)not.interested.in-it 990101) unless the query contains a "-C almost_secret_password_here" option. The so called "password" might be retrieved by e-mail from the RIPE NCC. > And if you make the changed: line availables optionally then those > who want to use addresses will quickly figure out how to get them. This is true. But if someone knows that the "changed" field is missing he knows too what is it for. The newbies who write these harrasing mails know nothing about RIPE database so they won't miss this info. They will happy without it too. ;-) This is like medicines. Its are hazardous in hand of a child so we must keep the drugs locked away. However adults can open the locker in the bathroom easy if the need some pills. Regards Gabor

2 1

RE: "changed" field should be deleted
by Christian Panigl, ACOnet/UniVie 05 Jun '98

05 Jun '98

>Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:12:32 +0200 >From: kissg(a)sztaki.hu > >What is your opinion? Hi Gabor, by chance I know someone who already had similar thoughts, guess who ;-) >(Personally I've changed my jobs years ago but my e-mail address >can be found in hundreds of *ch fields. So I hate the >anti-spam spam as well than the spam itself.) How about changing our mail address, let's say every two weeks ?-( I'd vote for your first suggestion: >- modified database software that hides the *ch field. *ch's could > be retrieved with some extra efforts only Probably this could/should be combined with introducing "real" changed records (added by the database software using mail-header of update). Cheers Christian --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- --- Christian Panigl : Vienna University Computer Center - ACOnet --- --- VUCC - ACOnet - VIX : -------------------------------------------- --- --- Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Mail: Panigl(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at (CP8-RIPE) --- --- A-1010 Vienna / Austria : Tel: +43 1 4277-14032 (Fax: -9140) --- --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---

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Beta Version of the State of the Database Reports.
by RIPE Database Administration 05 Jun '98

05 Jun '98

Dear Colleagues, At the Database Working Group session at RIPE 31 in Stockholm recently, it was announced that the beta version of the State of the Database Reports would be published. The URL is: <http://www.ripe.net/db/state/index.html> Comments and questions to <ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net>. Regards, Ambrose Magee ____________________________ RIPE Database Administration.

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03 Jun '98

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down time on rpslii.ripe.net
by Joao Luis Silva Damas 28 May '98

28 May '98

Dear all, Tomorrow at 13:15 the phase II rpsl server at the RIPE NCC (rpslii.ripe.net) will be down for an estimated time of 1h 30m for physical relocation of the machine to a different location. Regards, Joao

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(no subject)
by Gerald Winters 22 May '98

22 May '98

Hello All, Does someone from Ripe know the story on the "withdrawn" attribute for route objects? The value in the v2 ripe shows date plus email address whereas v1 had date only. 1. What is the rationale for the change? Thanks, --jerry ------- Forwarded Message Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:02:57 +0930 From: Mark Prior <mrp(a)connect.com.au> To: cengiz(a)isi.edu cc: Gerald Winters <gerald(a)merit.edu>, rps(a)isi.edu, merit-ie(a)merit.edu, cengiz(a)cat.isi.edu Subject: Re: RPSL phase ii software announcement Mark Prior on Tue, 19 May 1998 08:57:31 +0930 said: > Onto something completely different, I notice that the withdrawn > attribute under RIPE DB v1 was only a date, then RIPE DB v2 made it a > date and email address and finally RPSL has changed it back to just a > date again. What's the rationale for the changes? I'm just curious as > I have to deal with all three formats now :-( [snip...] It would be interesting to know why RIPE changed it from someone at RIPE who knows, assuming someone does :-) Mark. ------- End of Forwarded Message

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Re:
by Gerald Andrew Winters 19 May '98

19 May '98

Hello Daniel, So the person who withdrew the route can be different from the person who submitted the change? I assume that is the reason for adding an email address to withdrawn. But is this a likely scenerio, that of the submitter of the change being different from the withdrawer? --jerry > Gerald Winters <gerald(a)merit.edu> writes: > Hello All, > > Does someone from Ripe know the story on the "withdrawn" > attribute for route objects? The value in the v2 ripe > shows date plus email address whereas v1 had date only. > > 1. What is the rationale for the change? To be able to document who withdrew the route. > > Thanks, And what was 2? Daniel

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db-wg minutes ripe-29
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 13 May '98

13 May '98

The following was waiting on top of more than one desk (on mine eventually ;-) - again causing undue delay. Please accept my apologies. Wilfried. ------------- Cut along the dotted line ----------------- Database Working Group Minutes of meeting, 28th January, 1998 at RIPE XXIX, Amsterdam, Kingdom of the Netherlands. (!!! => Action Point). The meeting began at 14:00. Wilfried Woeber chaired. 1. Administration. AMRM acted as scribe. JS sent unsolicited (but not unwelcome :-) ) notes to WW and AMRM after the meeting. CO agreed to become scribe while AMRM was swapped out to give a presentation. The proposed agenda, circulated previously, was agreed; no changes were made. The draft minutes of DB WG at RIPE 28 had been previously circulated. Comments were welcome on the mailing list. 2. The RIPE Database; an update on NCC activity. (A.M.R. Magee) Person & role data on the ftp site -> now controlled by an AUP => restricted access, still available on request, but based on an agreement with RIPE NCC, signed by a contact person. New release of the RIPE DB software v.2.1.1 available, runs on perl 5.004 RPSL -> report to Routing Wg DSTF (DB Sec Task Force)- > report to plenary Some bug fixes -> route object bug fixed New DB Code - design has begun - current functionality, new code - scalability - report from Maldwyn Morris later DB Consistency Project - State of the Database Reports -> report from the students later - Prevention -> new syntax checks; being implemented - Clean Up -> user education, new tools to be published State of DB reports - feedback welcome -> frequency, appearance, ..... Database Statistics - number of DB objects is doubling approximately every 8 - 10 months; - now 750K objects - number of DB updates slowly increasing, with major spikes every 6 - 8 months -> possibly TLD administrators doing a "clean-up" - number of DB queries gradually increasing, the growth is modulated by a short-term (~ 2 months) fluctuation now more than 2.2 x 10E6 queries per month ripe-dbm - mail bounces make the most mail -> new objects created in the DB -> these objects have a "notify" attribute which references an e-mail address which is not set up -> mail bounce to <ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net> - users are asking <ripe-dbm> for help before reading ripe-157 (AMRM swapped back into scribe). * DB consistency project; State of the DB Reports - WW introduced Kurt Dirnbauer and Horst Koenigshofer; he explained their role in the RIPE NCC as stagiares from the FS, Wiener Nieuwstadt. What is the DB consistency project ? Kurt Dirnbauer briefly described the RIPE Database Consistency Project, refering to the report written by students from the Vrij Universiteit van Amsterdam (and described by CO at the DB WG at RIPE 27). He said that the goal of this project is to remove the inconsistencies in the Database; e.g. make person references more reliable He pointed out that the RIPE DB is not a commercial DB; it is a "hand-built" database. This has advantages (e.g. portability) and disadvantages (not relational). He then showed an example of a State of the Database Report and a graph of one of the tables of data (using sample data). Technical Details Horst Koenigshofer then discussed the details of his program. This program takes the data and index files of the RIPE DB as input. It appends its output to existing files which contain the output from a previous run of the program. These files contain the numbers of each type of inconsistency. He said that at present, when there are 750K objects in the DB, that his program needs approx 4hrs on a PC (133 Mhz, 2 GB disc, 32MB RAM). Thus, his program will need 12 hours when there are 2 x 10E6 objects in the DB next year. Thus, improvements are planned: rewrite part of program and/or upgrade the hardware. Christian Halbe asked about the use of the output of the State of the DB reports. CO replied that reports to individual object managers would be available in the future. CO went on to say that clean-up tools for objects managers would be provided; the problem of who has the authority to change invalid objects would be addressed. Christian Halbe asked about plans to prevent further pollution of the RIPE Database. CO said that new syntax checks are defined; they will be implemented. WW asked whether the problems were because of structural inconsistencies or restricted modifications ??? Carsten Schiefner asked whether or not open access to the DB should be disallowed i.e. why should anyone with an e-mail address be able to create/update/delete objects ? WW replied ??? CO said that there existed an authorisation model for registering domain objects and IP address assignments; currently, a model is being developed for the Routing Registry. Thus, if all three models are in place, a general model for authorising DB updates could be deployed. WW pointed out that the modification of existing objects can be controlled and suggested that we make this mechanism more secure. There is already some control with the "mnt-lower" attribute. However, there is no control on the creation of person or role objects similar to the creation of a mntner object (which requires the manual intervention of the RIPE NCC). In the past, _everyone_ was welcome to register useful data in the RIPE DB. Should this change now ? * DB software Re-Engineering Maldwyn Morris, RIPE NCC discussed the existing code of the RIPE DB and outlined proposals for re-engineering it. He described the current system as one with well known interfaces, heavily used and "it works, but ....". He outlined the problems with the code: it is unspecified, undocumented, under commented, messy, and based on the functionality of perl4; i.e. the excellent new feature available in PERL5 are not used. He went on to say that the new version will be carefully planned: the code will be specified, documented and commented. API layers will be specified which will be coded in an appropriate language. External software (e.g. a database engine) will be used where appropriate. He described the workplan to develop this new software, but stressed that the existing functionality will be preserved; the goal here is not to introduce new functionality, but to make it easy to do so. AMRM pointed out that the software was specified in RIPE documents. MM replied that the functionality of the existing code was often different from the specification in the RIPE documents. Jake Khoun asked about goals for optimisation, e.g. increased speed. MM said that such improvements were under consideration. Jake Khoun suggested that Merit and RIPE NCC might combine appropriate pieces of DB software. Both he and MM agreed to continue the discussion off-line. CO stressed that this what was being dsicussed was new code with existing functionality; the RIPE NCC would continue to add new functionality to the existing code. WW commented that the existing code _is_ working and still performing satisfactorily. He himself would like to see a commercial database with the facility for shadow copies, ftp-copies etc. available all over Europe. He remarked how the NCC had reached the limit, in terms of volume, of the existing code. These limits are set by PERL and the operating system. It was pointed out that other organizations use similar code and link in external software. The NCC will consider this. * Other Developments !!! Jake Khuon and WW agreed to send a proposal for specifying new functionality to the RIDE mailing list. Jake indicated that the RIPE NCC code was used, but with a small modification to the process of handling as-macro objects. He went on to say that Cengiz had promised that the new version of the RA Toolset will support this. !!! Jake promised to send another pointer to the mailing list saying where the documents about this exist. CO remarked that the RIDE project had stopped, and with it a way to formulate the exchange of database information. Thus the IP registries are unable to exchange data. There is a major problem with the RIPE NCC being able to exchange data with ARIN; this problem may be solved at the level of an IETF WG or direct contact between IP registries. * Proposal for online registration of person objects (or role objects) to be done during a DNS domain registration (WW was swapped out of the chair to give a presentation on this topic; CO was swapped into the chair). The overall goal is to register a DNS domain. Currently there are two ways to do it, both are clumsy. The first method involves do some processes locally: e.g. rip apart the request for a domain and get the person object; then check if the person object is in the RIPE database. The new concept: do not mix DNS domain registration, and person/role registration. Start with person/role objects. Then submit domain object (or inetnum, or whatever), i.e. the referenced objects first, then the referencing objects. Currently, the only interface to the RIPE DB is based on e-mail. This is store and forward => slow (unreliable ?). The proposal on the table is to replace (or supplement ?) the e-mail interface with a process that will generate an new nic-hdl immediately. I.e. a separate communication path between update machine of the RIPE DB, and some application at the user side. So no disruption during the overall registration process occurs. This should include syntax checks and semantic checks (distributed, i.e. not only at the RIPE DB site, but also locally). There should at least be support for security, even if it is not implemented: - checks on the identity of the person sending in the update - responses should be signed - before anyone can use this path, they must first make a case to the RIPE NCC. WW felt that these three security checks were going to come anyway. WW presented this technical proposal and showed a sketch of the outline of the process. He pointed out that local checks could be implemented in the client. rough sketch: client local server DB master java-script <----> cgi bin <----> DB software local http tcp Most of the analysis done at the local side, additional testing done by the RIPE DB. WW said that some developement work had been done; a Java applet had been developed (for the client). Prototypes already exist, others are invited to also use it, if the community thinks that it is worthwhile. WW then asked the group for input ..... Christian Halbe said that this system was exactly what his organisation needed. They had a similar system, but it was based on e-mail and it was slow. Achim Patzner said that this system would be too late for his organisation. CO (as temporary Chair of the WG) thanked WW for his presentation. CO went on to say that some of the security issues mentioned earlier were being addresses by the DSTF (Database Security Task Force), including the definition of a secure database. CO invited input. Overall, there was support for this idea in order to develop a simple user interface. * Input from other WGs JS summarised the result of the Routing Work Group meeting, which was held earlier that day. In particular, JS mentioned: - authorisation: discussed both at the last IETF meeting and at the Routing Working Group that morning; updates should to the database should be authenticated; - more security: misuse/malicious use should be prevented - the Routing Registry is part of the overall registry; there is security on the IP numbers, but not on route objects. - more input for Database Working Group ?? * AOB none. * Close. RIPE XXIX DB WG Action Points ----------------------------- 1/. Jake Khuon and WW agreed to send a proposal for specifying new functionality to the RIDE mailing list. 2/. Jake promised to send another pointer to the mailing list saying where the documents about the RAToolset exist. ------------------------------------------------------

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RE: RIPE 30 in Stockholm
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 13 May '98

13 May '98

>Please supply me with an agenda for your working >group at the forthcoming RIPE meeting. Apologies for the delay. The following is a draft agenda for the DB-WG meeting in Stockholm next week. Wilfried. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Proposed Agenda for the Database Working Group Meeting RIPE-30, May 1998, Stockholm Draft, May 12, 1998 A. Administrative stuff (Wilfried Woeber, chair, ~5min) - appointment of scribe - agenda bashing B. General DB Update (RIPE NCC, ~15min) C. DB In/Consistency efforts (RIPE NCC, ~15min) - tools for the users ? D. DB SW re-implementation (RIPE NCC, ~15min + discussion) E. RPSL trans phase II: Merit's experience (~20min) F. IRRd presentation (Jake Khuoan/Craig Labovit, Merit) G. Impact of rps-dist and rps-auth drafts on DB developments H. "role:" objects for "admin-c:"s revisited (Erik-Jan Bos, SURFnet) - proposal to allow role objects being ref.d in admin-c:s Y. Input from other WGs - t.b.d. Z. AOB WW, 12-MAY-1998 23:57:48

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PDCD1
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12 May '98

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None
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20 Apr '98

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auto-dbm
by RIPE Database Administration 06 Apr '98

06 Apr '98

Dear Colleagues, There is a problem with auto-dbm today. We are working to fix it, but there will be a delay before your mail is processed. If you have already sent an update, it is in the queue and it will be processed. Thank you for your patience. If you have any questions, please contact <ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net>. Regards, Ambrose Magee ____________________________ RIPE Database Administration.

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