- db-wg - mailman.ripe.net

RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by Titley, Nigel 16 Mar '04

16 Mar '04

Niall O'Reilly wrote: > On 13 Mar 2004, at 03:33, der Mouse wrote: > >> >>> A low blow.... and also one that is incorrect. Look again, >>> "serenaders" rhymes (or is more strictly an assonance) with "made >>> us". >> >> Only in UK English. > > No; only in certain dialects of British English. This rhyme won't > work too well in Glasgow, or in the Welsh valleys. > > 8-) Niall Well, as I said, its really an assonance rather than a rhyme, the "a" in "serenaders" is an assonance with the "a" in "made us". It's a perfectly valid poetic device and very common in ballads, although possibly fights slightly shy of the RIPE database definition of a limerick. Nigel -- Nigel Titley Peering Coordinator, FLAG Telecom +44 20 7478 9579 ********************************************************************** This e-mail message is confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and contains information which is or may be confidential, non-public or legally privileged. Any dissemination or distribution of this message other than to its intended recipient is strictly prohibited. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose the contents to any other person. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by email to postmaster(a)flagtelecom.com immediately and delete the original message and all copies from all locations in your computer systems. This e-mail has been swept by Mailsweeper TM for viruses. However, FLAG Telecom cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. ********************************************************************** This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl - www.mailcontrol.com

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by Titley, Nigel 14 Mar '04

14 Mar '04

Shane Kerr wrote: > Titley, Nigel wrote: >> >> Does the RIPE NCC have a view >> On provision of objects haiku? >> Are you bored and depressed >> And in need of a rest? >> Is this just too much extra to do? > > I think that I shall never see, > A class as lovely as a tree. > Trees like ash and bitternut, > May be only made by God but, > Objects are made by fools like me. > > [ With apologies to Alfred Joyce Kilmer ] > > > Anyway, we are certainly willing to implement any feature that the > community thinks is necessary, including but not limited to new > classes, attributes, access methods, etc. > > > Having said that, we have some problems with the current limerick > class. > > First, we are having trouble coming up with a good way to detect > whether limerick contents match the rhyming scheme. We can implement > this, although we will probably limit it to English (even though > there are Dutch, French, German, and other limericks), and will have > to make it a warning rather than an error, to allow for artistic > leave (to help people who think that "serenaders" rhyme with "join > us", like in LIM-NT13-1). A low blow.... and also one that is incorrect. Look again, "serenaders" rhymes (or is more strictly an assonance) with "made us". The last line "join in" rhymes with "the din". Some sort of soundex scheme would possibly have found this... however I agree that this is not an easy problem. > > Second, it is difficult for us to enforce the requirement that the > poem is humorous. I tried various algorithms, but none of the > software I came up with seemed to find any of the limericks funny at > all. Actually, I thought my computer was angry enough to swear at > me, until I remembered that I had tried Perl, and the punctuation > symbols were just the program itself. Well, as you know, I'm not at all sure that limericks are *required* to be humourous. I agree that the database definition says they are, but I feel that this is too limiting. I would propose modification of the specification to be "usually humourous". Of course if the verse-form proposal below is adopted, this can be dealt with in the descriptive limerick. > Anyway, I find the haiku an interesting proposal, but I do like the > generality of the poem proposal. I also agree that limiting the > types of poems to a pre-defined set of types. Therefore I suggest we > use the database to self-document the types of poems using a > meta-poem object. So poems would look like this: > > poem: [mandatory] [single] [primary/look-up key] > descr: [optional] [multiple] [ ] > form: [mandatory] [single] [inverse key] > text: [mandatory] [multiple] [ ] > admin-c: [mandatory] [multiple] [inverse key] > author: [mandatory] [multiple] [inverse key] > remarks: [optional] [multiple] [ ] > notify: [optional] [multiple] [inverse key] > mnt-by: [mandatory] [multiple] [inverse key] > changed: [mandatory] [multiple] [ ] > source: [mandatory] [single] [ ] > > The "form:" attribute will reference a poetic-form object: > > poetic-form: [mandatory] [single] [primary/look-up key] > descr: [optional] [multiple] [ ] > admin-c: [mandatory] [multiple] [inverse key] > tech-c: [mandatory] [multiple] [inverse key] > remarks: [optional] [multiple] [ ] > notify: [optional] [multiple] [inverse key] > mnt-by: [mandatory] [multiple] [inverse key] > changed: [mandatory] [multiple] [ ] > source: [mandatory] [single] [ ] > > The "descr:", "admin-c:", "tech-c:", "remarks:", "notify:", "mnt-by:", > "changed:", and "source:" attributes are required in all RPSL objects > according to RFC 2622. > > Initially we would have: > > poetic-form: VERSE-LIMERICK > desr: A limerick object represents a humorous poem that has > five lines and the rhyme scheme "aabba". > admin-c: LIM1-RIPE > tech-c: LIM1-RIPE > mnt-by: RIPE-DBM-MNT > changed: ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net 20040401 > source: RIPE > > poetic-form: VERSE-HAIKU > descr: A haiku object represents a poem that usually has three > lines with 5, 7 and 5 units. In languages other than > Japanese units are generally applied as syllables. > There is no rhyme scheme at all. > admin-c: HIKU1-RIPE > tech-c: HIKU1-RIPE > mnt-by: RIPE-DBM-MNT > changed: ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net 20040401 > source: RIPE > > We would restrict new poetic-form objects to creation by RIPE DBM, but > adding additional forms for sonnets, free verse, blank verse, and so > on, should be easy. If the community feels that identifying and > documenting poetic forms falls out of the scope of the RIPE NCC > activities, we can consider an alternative mechanism. Perhaps ICANN > would be able to perform this activity? I personally wouldn't trust ICANN to create any verse-form other than a writ, although in mitigation, we have an ex-speaker for the secret working group embedded as a mole within the organisation, and now may be the time to activate him. > In any case, we would need a conversion project to change the existing > limerick objects into poem objects. There are currently 152 of > these, so we need to be careful not to interfere with these in a way > that affect the production services that depend on them. Oh quite. Perhaps the RIPE NCC could come up with a migration plan. I think the above is an excellent proposal, and I further endorse the later suggestion that the description be in the verse form itself. Best regards -- Nigel Titley Peering Coordinator, FLAG Telecom +44 20 7478 9579 ********************************************************************** This e-mail message is confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and contains information which is or may be confidential, non-public or legally privileged. Any dissemination or distribution of this message other than to its intended recipient is strictly prohibited. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose the contents to any other person. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by email to postmaster(a)flagtelecom.com immediately and delete the original message and all copies from all locations in your computer systems. This e-mail has been swept by Mailsweeper TM for viruses. However, FLAG Telecom cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. ********************************************************************** This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl - www.mailcontrol.com

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by TAYON, Julien 11 Mar '04

11 Mar '04

Titley, Nigel <mailto:NTitley@flagtelecom.com> wrote: > Olaf M. Kolkman wrote: >> I'd suggest the descr: field to be in the poetic form itself. > >> >> Looking at the VERSE-SONNET we may have a problem. There are several >> subclasses that people may wish to use. The Italian Sonnet, The >> English Sonnet and more modern varieties. How do we indicate >> possible sub-classes in the object? >> >> poetic-form: VERSE-SONNET >> variety: ENGLISH >> descr: (Somebody needs to write an English Sonnet) I would propose to Keep It Simple Poetic form: MAJOR-[MINOR][-SUBMINOR][-...] Example : poetic-form: VERSE-SONNET-ITALIAN poetic-form: VERSE-SONNET-ENGLISH ex : Venitian variety of Italian Sonnet could be : >> poetic-form: VERSE-SONNET-ITALIAN-VENITIAN This way we can extend as much as we want the poetic form. This is based on the assumption that Poetric form are homothetic to a tree structure. Which cannot be proven according to Goedel's theorem however I would say it is sufficiently close to reality for me. We will let the work of demonstrating the tree like structure of poetic form to the mathematicians if you don't mind. Regards, -- julien.tayon(a)neuf.com +33 (0)1 70 18 14 45 Gestion des adresses IPs, BU Data n9uf telecom 40 - 42 Quai du Point du Jour 92659 Boulogne Billancourt

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by Titley, Nigel 11 Mar '04

11 Mar '04

Olaf M. Kolkman wrote: > I'd suggest the descr: field to be in the poetic form itself. > > > poetic-form: VERSE-LIMERICK > desr: The object consists of a verse > in a format that is far from terse > a-a-b-b-a scheme > around a humorous theme > and is sometimes extremely perverse > > admin-c: LIM1-RIPE > tech-c: LIM1-RIPE > mnt-by: RIPE-DBM-MNT > changed: ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net 20040401 > source: RIPE > > poetic-form: VERSE-HAIKU > descr: The haiku object > only seven syllables > in its density > admin-c: HIKU1-RIPE > tech-c: HIKU1-RIPE > mnt-by: RIPE-DBM-MNT > changed: ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net 20040401 > source: RIPE > > > Looking at the VERSE-SONNET we may have a problem. There are several > subclasses that people may wish to use. The Italian Sonnet, The > English Sonnet and more modern varieties. How do we indicate possible > sub-classes in the object? > > poetic-form: VERSE-SONNET > variety: ENGLISH > descr: (Somebody needs to write an English Sonnet) I'm happy to take an action to write an English Sonnet > poetic-form: VERSE-SONNET > variety: ITALIAN > descr: (Somebody needs to write an Italian Sonnet) -- Nigel Titley Peering Coordinator, FLAG Telecom +44 20 7478 9579 ********************************************************************** This e-mail message is confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and contains information which is or may be confidential, non-public or legally privileged. Any dissemination or distribution of this message other than to its intended recipient is strictly prohibited. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose the contents to any other person. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by email to postmaster(a)flagtelecom.com immediately and delete the original message and all copies from all locations in your computer systems. This e-mail has been swept by Mailsweeper TM for viruses. However, FLAG Telecom cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. ********************************************************************** This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl - www.mailcontrol.com

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by TAYON, Julien 11 Mar '04

11 Mar '04

Olaf M. Kolkman <mailto:olaf@ripe.net> wrote: > I'd suggest the descr: field to be in the poetic form itself. > > > poetic-form: VERSE-LIMERICK > desr: The object consists of a verse > in a format that is far from terse > a-a-b-b-a scheme > around a humorous theme > and is sometimes extremely perverse > > admin-c: LIM1-RIPE > tech-c: LIM1-RIPE > mnt-by: RIPE-DBM-MNT > changed: ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net 20040401 > source: RIPE > > poetic-form: VERSE-HAIKU > descr: The haiku object > only seven syllables > in its density > admin-c: HIKU1-RIPE > tech-c: HIKU1-RIPE > mnt-by: RIPE-DBM-MNT > changed: ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net 20040401 > source: RIPE > poetic-form: PROSE descr: Don't let the structure tie your tongue ; if you hate the masochism of verses, remember that you can feel free to use prose, and feel free because you are. admin-c: LIM1-RIPE tech-c: LIM1-RIPE mnt-by: RIPE-DBM-MNT changed: ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net 20040401 source: RIPE

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by Titley, Nigel 11 Mar '04

11 Mar '04

Robert S. Plaul wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Titley, Nigel wrote: > >> All poems are limericks, true. >> There are no need for objects haiku >> This thread is amusing >> It set us all musing >> But we plainly have little to do >> >> Nigel > > The RIPE Database > Guardian of the limericks > Now needs the haiku > > The haiku object - > Greater flexibility > The virtue is clear Does the RIPE NCC have a view On provision of objects haiku? Are you bored and depressed And in need of a rest? Is this just too much extra to do? Nigel -- Nigel Titley Peering Coordinator, FLAG Telecom +44 20 7478 9579 ********************************************************************** This e-mail message is confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and contains information which is or may be confidential, non-public or legally privileged. Any dissemination or distribution of this message other than to its intended recipient is strictly prohibited. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose the contents to any other person. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by email to postmaster(a)flagtelecom.com immediately and delete the original message and all copies from all locations in your computer systems. This e-mail has been swept by Mailsweeper TM for viruses. However, FLAG Telecom cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. ********************************************************************** This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl - www.mailcontrol.com

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by TAYON, Julien 10 Mar '04

10 Mar '04

Titley, Nigel <mailto:NTitley@flagtelecom.com> wrote: > And I, as usual, having sent the email, and gone off to make a cup of > tea, realised that there was a humorous interpretation of your > reply..... > Pssst RTFM (RFC 1855) Regarding Mailing lists it is written : - Remember that the recipient is a human being whose culture, language, and humor have different points of reference from your own. Remember that date formats, measurements, and idioms may not travel well. Be especially careful with sarcasm. Therefore remember to be deadly serious. PS is it possible to have a web page with all limmericks from the RIPE whois DB ? PPS march the 31st +-1 day is a good day for a RFC :) Jul

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by TAYON, Julien 10 Mar '04

10 Mar '04

>> All poems are limericks, true. >> There are no need for objects haiku >> This thread is amusing >> It set us all musing >> But we plainly have little to do >> >> Nigel > > The RIPE Database > Guardian of the limericks > Now needs the haiku > > The haiku object - > Greater flexibility > The virtue is clear > > Robert Without Haiku, I pity that all verses are lame. Still, this thread is fun for a flame, misunderstanding is to blame it is all the same ... with poems Julien

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by Titley, Nigel 10 Mar '04

10 Mar '04

Robert S. Plaul wrote: > On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> I can only say that I find it extremely unsporty that have not made >> the case for this new database object in haiku form then... > > That's because I first tried it in limerick form. These tries were so > exhausting (because of the restrictions of the limerick I described > before), that I did't even had the nerves to write haikus... Well, being a fan of the limerick form, as my previous posting has made clear, I present my argument in limerick form ;-) All poems are limericks, true. There are no need for objects haiku This thread is amusing It set us all musing But we plainly have little to do Nigel -- Nigel Titley Peering Coordinator, FLAG Telecom +44 20 7478 9579 ********************************************************************** This e-mail message is confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and contains information which is or may be confidential, non-public or legally privileged. Any dissemination or distribution of this message other than to its intended recipient is strictly prohibited. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose the contents to any other person. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by email to postmaster(a)flagtelecom.com immediately and delete the original message and all copies from all locations in your computer systems. This e-mail has been swept by Mailsweeper TM for viruses. However, FLAG Telecom cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. ********************************************************************** This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl - www.mailcontrol.com

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RE: [db-wg] proposal: haiku object
by Titley, Nigel 09 Mar '04

09 Mar '04

Now I can certainly agree that March 31st + 1 would be a good day for an RFC As regards the web page, suggest you ask Bert's secretary. Titley, Nigel < mailto:NTitley@flagtelecom.com <mailto:NTitley@flagtelecom.com> > wrote: > And I, as usual, having sent the email, and gone off to make a cup of > tea, realised that there was a humorous interpretation of your > reply..... > Pssst RTFM (RFC 1855) Regarding Mailing lists it is written : - Remember that the recipient is a human being whose culture, language, and humor have different points of reference from your own. Remember that date formats, measurements, and idioms may not travel well. Be especially careful with sarcasm. Therefore remember to be deadly serious. PS is it possible to have a web page with all limmericks from the RIPE whois DB ? PPS march the 31st +-1 day is a good day for a RFC :) Jul ********************************************************************** This e-mail message is confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and contains information which is or may be confidential, non-public or legally privileged. Any dissemination or distribution of this message other than to its intended recipient is strictly prohibited. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose the contents to any other person. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by email to postmaster(a)flagtelecom.com immediately and delete the original message and all copies from all locations in your computer systems. This e-mail has been swept by Mailsweeper TM for viruses. However, FLAG Telecom cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. ********************************************************************** This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl - www.mailcontrol.com

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