Michele, [ Hm... I had this marked as "sent on 2018-02-21" on my mailbox, but I don't see it on the mailing list archives. Re-sending a month later. ] I was at a gathering where a member of the Dutch government explained the negotiations with the US regarding TTIP(*). Basically the US insisted that all negotiations be done in secret. The Dutch representatives felt like they had no choice, so agreed to this condition. The feeling of most of the room, including myself, was that the Dutch government should have said that it was impossible for us to conduct such non-transparent discussions and walked away. That is my feeling here too with the RIPE NCC and LEA, which is to say that I basically agree with Alexander. I realize that LEA officials may not have freedom to attend meetings openly for many reasons. That is a shame and I do not blame them or think that they necessarily have bad motives. Legal restrictions may exist, or simply perception problems, and these can be very real. But the Internet culture has always been transparent, and we should strive always for maximum openness and transparency, even if this makes certain types of interactions impossible. It may also be that LEA culture and governmental culture in general reflexively tries to do things in secret - or at least private - that do not need to be. Perhaps the RIPE community pushing a bit may move things in the right direction. In terms of oversight and accountability, such secret meetings are also problematic for the RIPE NCC members. How can a member evaluate if their interests are being represented if they cannot even know who is being talked to? Alexander's concerns about discussions with bad actors seem justified to me. Cheers, -- Shane (*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
Holding meetings with LEA is a good idea in order to help them understand what we all do as well as to understand their concerns.
Demanding that they register etc., would make such meetings problematic.
So I disagree with you fundamentally.
Regards
Michele
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 19/02/2018, 15:08, "cooperation-wg on behalf of Alexander Isavnin" <cooperation-wg-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of isavnin@gmail.com> wrote:
Chris!
Seems i'v mistaken, and Openness and Transparency are no longer essencial values for RIPE NCC.
No gap could be briged if LEAs stays anonymous. Breaking openness and transparency for comfort of some doubtful officers - is really bad idea.
Why i ask for LEA deanonymisation? Read ECHR cases against Russia on tortures (and other abuses) by all kind of LEAs. It would be really pity, if later appears, that RIPE NCC have met some of such abusers.
Regards, Alexander
P.S. As we say in Internet: "pics, or never happened" P.P.S. Also, "Once cop always cop", even if it tries to infiltrate into engeneering world. As we seen, successfully protecting interests of cops, rather than interests of Community.
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