Wilhelm, all - On 13.11.2013 09:01, Wilhelm Boeddinghaus wrote:

I personally think their want the monopoly back. Oh, the good old times without competition :-)

the smell is just too strong here to go unnoticed: this is pure market powerplay for dominance in the disguise of "The Good for the People". If domestic traffic needs to be routed within the borders of that very domain - whether this is a country or the Schengen EU - it would drastically reduce the number of carriers, ISPs etc. In essence, the only carrier(s) to be able to do this on a national/Schengen EU wide level is/are the... [DRUM ROLL] incumbent carrier(s)! If if this is even backed by a law specifically made for this: it's Christmas, Easter and the respective CEO's birthday on 365 days of the year from now on. Hooray, life is beautiful again! The interesting bit is: this is *NOT* a layer 3/4 issue - this is the mother of all layer 8 and higher issues. And therefore should only be dealt with there. I cannot be told that whoever aims at tapping a "national" or "Schengen EU" Internet will fail to do so, because of... it's different architecture? It's deployed for only being tapped by the "Good Ones" aka. "our" spies? Or what? Best, -C.

The double-irony is that the EU's Data Retention Directive means that they were legally obliged to collect a lot of the data in the first place. Gordon On 13 Nov, 2013, at 10:56, Will Hargrave <will@harg.net> wrote:

On 13 Nov 2013, at 09:25, Carsten Schiefner <ripe-wgs.cs@schiefner.de> wrote:

...

...

I personally think their want the monopoly back. Oh, the good old times without competition :-) the smell is just too strong here to go unnoticed: this is pure market powerplay for dominance in the disguise of "The Good for the People". If domestic traffic needs to be routed within the borders of that very domain - whether this is a country or the Schengen EU - it would drastically reduce the number of carriers, ISPs etc. In essence, the only carrier(s) to be able to do this on a national/Schengen EU wide level is/are the... [DRUM ROLL] incumbent carrier(s)!

The irony is, it is these sorts of large carriers who, without oversight, started selling our data to governments in the first place!

With increasing focus on liberalising the market for services in the EU, excluding British companies from competing on a level footing within the EU would be interesting. (e.g. consider Vodafone's recent acquisition of Kabel Deutschland)

The prospect of countries 'pulling up the drawbridge' is concerning. Politicians are finally realising that it is not the US dominance of organisations like ICANN which matters to the Internet but the actual network itself. We can expect similar rhetoric in the future.

Will _______________________________________________ connect-bof mailing list connect-bof@ripe.net https://www.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/connect-bof

Of course the next twist is that once they have collected some slightly indelicate data for some extreme reason they seem to find it unthinkable not to reuse the data for some other totally banal reason. Well they have gone to all the effort and expense of collecting it so they might as well extract maximum value from it? Whatever... Seen this so many times. Gordon On 13 Nov, 2013, at 14:07, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:

...

The double-irony is that the EU's Data Retention Directive means that they were legally obliged to collect a lot of the data in the first place.

large organizations, which include governments, do not have it in their genes to discard, reduce, ignore, ... data, or to bypass opportunities to accrue more data. it is the opposite. expecting them to do otherwise is naive or silly. and pick your battles very carefully when choosing to push back against some facet of this.

randy

Hi Will, all - On 13.11.2013 10:56, Will Hargrave wrote:

With increasing focus on liberalising the market for services in the EU, excluding British companies from competing on a level footing within the EU would be interesting.

that comes in addition. And I recall issues when the Commission got already highly excited about much smaller and less obvious competition violations...

(e.g. consider Vodafone's recent acquisition of Kabel Deutschland)

And now AT&T alledgedly has put an eye on VF: would this render KD inappropriate as a "national/Schengen EU Internet" carrier?

The prospect of countries 'pulling up the drawbridge' is concerning. Politicians are finally realising that it is not the US dominance of organisations like ICANN which matters to the Internet but the actual network itself. We can expect similar rhetoric in the future.

Unfortunately I can't disagree here. Best, -C.

On 13.11.2013 14:04, Bernhard Kroenung wrote:

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Das-DE-CIX-und-das-Schland-Netz-Betre...

That text reads in Google translated English: === The DE-CIX and the "Schland network": telecom operators outraged by plans to "Schengen routing" In the debate about a "national IP Routing", as recently the German Telekom has proposed , then switched to the DE-CIX Management GmbH as the operator of Europe's largest peering node. Their CEO Harald Summa revolted against the advance of Deutsche Telekom CEO René Obermann. He described the initiative as "pure marketing campaign and mislead policy." Like other routing experts now also dismissed Summa out that it was just the Telekom itself, which restricts a destination of data packets in the German jurisdiction. On public DE-CIX peering loud Summa participate 220 ​​German provider. Whose traffic is therefore remain "already within German borders and in German jurisdiction. Part of the German data traffic that is 'gepeert' through DE-CIX, so a national routing follows long," said Summa. The German Telekom is connected only one of the top 10 vendors that together provide 98 percent of Internet access in Germany, not far at DE-CIX. Instead, they organize the transport of your traffic as part of private peering directly with other network operators. In such a topology, it would now even more common for traffic between German operators the way for several others - take Networks - foreign. The goal is to reduce the attack surface for foreign intelligence over shorter routing paths, DE-CIX operator shall explicitly. The plans of Deutsche Telekom but keep it "for publicity eyewash and an attempt to restore their old de facto monopoly in Germany again," Summa said. "If the German Telekom would also exchange data traffic through DE-CIX, we could work together as a German company ensure that a very large part of the German data traffic would remain in German jurisdiction." Thus, "but a readily available solution on hand, which would benefit both the Internet industry and citizens - without huge additional costs on all sides We would be pleased to sit down with Deutsche Telekom to a table.." ===

On 11/13/13 09:28 , "Gert Doering" <gert@space.net> wrote:

Hi,

Oh, I wouldn't actually mind seeing 3320 being forced to peer with all ISPs present in germany, on reasonable terms.

That should have been done years ago.

A term as 'reasonable' is very much in the eye of the beholder and I think we should be very careful in spinning the discussion in any direction that would encourage legislation. Reasonable, in this example would for you mean something like 'not more than half than what I'm paying for transit' whereas 3320 might think that 'twice the price of your transit' would be entirely reasonable because they're delivering such a quality experience. This is a commercial issue and if you think a legislative body might help you here, well, I respectfully disagree. Back to the subject at hand: I think any form of "$national Internet" to protect anyone from "evil" foreign entities is exactly what Neelie Kroes meant with being naïve about online spying in her speech earlier this week: http://commentneelie.eu/speech.php?sp=SPEECH%2F13%2F903 Best Remco van Mook Director of Interconnection, EMEA EQUINIX | 80 Cheapside, London, EC2V 6EE, United Kingdom E remco@equinix.com | T +31-6-11356365 HOW ARE WE DOING? <http://www.customersat3.com/csc/equinix> Please click here to Tell Equinix - We're Listening Equinix.co.uk <http://www.equinix.co.uk/> | Twitter <https://twitter.com/equinix> | LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/company/equinix> | Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/Equinix> | YouTube <http://www.youtube.com/user/equinixvideos> This email is from Equinix Europe Limited or one of its associated/subsidiary companies. This email, and any files transmitted with it, contains information which is confidential, may be legally privileged and is solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email immediately. Equinix Europe Limited. Registered Office: Quadrant House, 4 Thomas More Square, London E1W 1YW. Registered in England and Wales, No. 6293383.

Wolfgang, Thanks for writing a piece:

On Nov 13, 2013, at 4:07 AM, Wolfgang Tremmel <wolfgang.tremmel@de-cix.net> wrote:

100% agree also see our press release http://presse.de-cix.net/uploads/media/PM_DE-CIX-NationalesRouting_vfinal.pd...

(Which google translate does a good job with). Some thoughts: First: AS3320/DTAG is a member of DC-CIX today and the ASNs moves (I assume) some minimal traffic via the IX. Of course they don't peer with many players; but it's there. Second: DE-CIX doesn't publish PNI (carrier to carrier interconnects) numbers as it's not in their business model. Hence a majority of traffic or interconnects within Frankfurt or other locations are ignored when looking at the IX stats. Note: LINX in the UK does publish this for London. Third: There are other major IXs in Germany. Don't forget ECIX in four cities. BCIX in Berlin. INXS in Munich. Plus Others. Germany is a large land mass (large mSec latency edge to edge). Other interconnect points besides Frankfurt are needed. Forth: Even without AS3320/DTAG present at DE-CIX German traffic may well be kept within the countries borders. It's efficient to route packets using a shortest path and employ what's called hot potato routing. For German networks that don't directly interconnect with AS3320/DTAG; I'm pretty sure their upstream transit provider does. I'm pretty sure that interconnect is also within Germany (and France, UK, Holland, Sweden, etc with their respective major telco's). I strongly recommend a review of http://ixmaps.ca/ project - maybe a budding German masters candidate could covert that from a Canadian to German experiment. Then we would know more data and read less rhetoric. (I mean from politicians vs this group - honest). Enjoy, Martin