Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Definition of Abuse
Easier to ask – why do other RIRs not have nearly the same high quantum of such issues? What do they do to prevent these, and reclaim resources allocated to bogus entities? --srs On 15/08/16, 8:56 PM, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of andre@ox.co.za> wrote: Unauthorized access is NOT ABUSE, in terms of the current definition: "The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource" And, this is the crux of it all, this defining of "abuse" is exactly why we require a definition.
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:57:03 +0530 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
Easier to ask – why do other RIRs not have nearly the same high quantum of such issues? What do they do to prevent these, and reclaim resources allocated to bogus entities?
I do not think that RIPE "has" to do anything. We (as in us the people or us the resource holders (as in my principal :) - or anyone actually) do have the right to discuss things. And as we are discussing abuse, it is a start to actually define it and know what it is, to talk about cats, we need to know and understand what a cat is. Otherwise one gal is talking about a dog and the other guy is talking about a sheep... Personally, I have no expectations or any agenda. I AM already doing something about what I believe abuse is. (although, if I learn here that abuse is something more/other than what I think it is, I am also open to growing, learning and improving myself) And, with regards abuse, I will still do more. A lot more. Andre -- any journey starts with a single step :) to paraphrase one of my personal hero's "ask not what the RIR can do for you, ask what you can do fo the RIR" and then there's yoda... help you must young padawan, help to understand the dark side, you must... and cpt Kirk... "All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?" to old Scottie... of course there is also Alice and that bloody scary rabbit...
--srs
On 15/08/16, 8:56 PM, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Unauthorized access is NOT ABUSE, in terms of the current definition: "The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
And, this is the crux of it all, this defining of "abuse" is exactly why we require a definition.
On 2016-08-15 19:27:03 CET, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
Easier to ask – why do other RIRs not have nearly the same high quantum of such issues?
What do they do to prevent these, and reclaim resources allocated to bogus entities?
The RIPE NCC is actually active in that field, providing "bogus" information as an LIR has lead to the closure of LIRs: https://www.ripe.net/about-us/legal/arbitration/summary-of-arbitration-rulin... And when it comes to the definition discussed in this thread:
"The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
The RIPE NCC has also been quite active in that aspect too: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-662#----1-1-registry-maintenance... "1.1.6 Internet Number Resource Investigations, and Dispute and Hijacking Handling Status: Decreasing Measurable usage: The RIPE NCC has investigated 252 potential hijacks since 2012. From 1 July 2014 to 30 June 2015 the RIPE NCC handled 85 investigations. The RIPE NCC received and investigated 572 abuse reports from 1 July 2014 2014 to 30 June 2015." Cheers, David
--srs
On 15/08/16, 8:56 PM, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net on behalf of andre _at_ ox.co _dot_ za> wrote:
Unauthorized access is NOT ABUSE, in terms of the current definition:
"The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
And, this is the crux of it all, this defining of "abuse" is exactly why we require a definition.
Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:38:49 +0200 David Hilario <fransossen@hotmail.com> wrote: <snip>
And when it comes to the definition discussed in this thread:
"The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
The RIPE NCC has also been quite active in that aspect too: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-662#----1-1-registry-maintenance...
Thank you for highlighting that "abuse" is decreasing. But, unfortunately, I do not know what abuse is, yet. I want to distinguish between crime and abuse. this will make it easier in the future for Law enforcement, Prosecutors, Courts and society to understand that : Joe hijacked an IP range and this could be a crime, not just "abuse" For one, I do not agree that unauthorized access is abuse (yet) I think it may be a crime in many countries, it may not be allowed in terms of each of our 'terms & conditions' of our own offerings or products and it is not tolerated, loved or even appreciated in any sane society, but is is not abuse. Abuse itself, as a word in the English language is to "use something to bad effect or; to use something for bad purpose or; the improper use of something or; treating something poorly or badly, not breaking into something or stealing and/or hijacking something When you steal/hijack something and then use that for abuse, that becomes abuse. If you just steal something, it is a crime called theft, which I am sure is illegal almost everywhere (afaik) Maybe you can help, David? When RIPE investigates "abuse" what are they investigating? Crimes? Criminal activity? Fraud? or actual abuse? Andre
"1.1.6 Internet Number Resource Investigations, and Dispute and Hijacking Handling
Status: Decreasing
Measurable usage: The RIPE NCC has investigated 252 potential hijacks since 2012. From 1 July 2014 to 30 June 2015 the RIPE NCC handled 85 investigations. The RIPE NCC received and investigated 572 abuse reports from 1 July 2014 2014 to 30 June 2015."
Cheers, David
--srs
On 15/08/16, 8:56 PM, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net on behalf of andre _at_ ox.co _dot_ za> wrote:
Unauthorized access is NOT ABUSE, in terms of the current definition: "The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
And, this is the crux of it all, this defining of "abuse" is exactly why we require a definition.
Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum
Are you *really* discussing what is abuse instead of dealing with it? Yes, that is really gonna turn into a stand-up comics... On 08/16/16 16:08, ox wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:38:49 +0200 David Hilario <fransossen@hotmail.com> wrote: <snip>
And when it comes to the definition discussed in this thread:
"The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
The RIPE NCC has also been quite active in that aspect too: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-662#----1-1-registry-maintenance...
Thank you for highlighting that "abuse" is decreasing. But, unfortunately, I do not know what abuse is, yet.
I want to distinguish between crime and abuse. this will make it easier in the future for Law enforcement, Prosecutors, Courts and society to understand that : Joe hijacked an IP range and this could be a crime, not just "abuse"
For one, I do not agree that unauthorized access is abuse (yet) I think it may be a crime in many countries, it may not be allowed in terms of each of our 'terms & conditions' of our own offerings or products and it is not tolerated, loved or even appreciated in any sane society, but is is not abuse.
Abuse itself, as a word in the English language is to "use something to bad effect or; to use something for bad purpose or; the improper use of something or; treating something poorly or badly,
not breaking into something or stealing and/or hijacking something
When you steal/hijack something and then use that for abuse, that becomes abuse.
If you just steal something, it is a crime called theft, which I am sure is illegal almost everywhere (afaik)
Maybe you can help, David?
When RIPE investigates "abuse" what are they investigating? Crimes? Criminal activity? Fraud? or actual abuse?
Andre
"1.1.6 Internet Number Resource Investigations, and Dispute and Hijacking Handling
Status: Decreasing
Measurable usage: The RIPE NCC has investigated 252 potential hijacks since 2012. From 1 July 2014 to 30 June 2015 the RIPE NCC handled 85 investigations. The RIPE NCC received and investigated 572 abuse reports from 1 July 2014 2014 to 30 June 2015."
Cheers, David
--srs
On 15/08/16, 8:56 PM, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net on behalf of andre _at_ ox.co _dot_ za> wrote:
Unauthorized access is NOT ABUSE, in terms of the current definition: "The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
And, this is the crux of it all, this defining of "abuse" is exactly why we require a definition.
Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum
-- Kind regards, CTO at *Foton Telecom CJSC* Tel.: +7 (499) 679-99-99 AS42861 on PeeringDB <http://as42861.peeringdb.com/>, Qrator <https://radar.qrator.net/as42861>, BGP.HE.NET <http://bgp.he.net/AS42861> http://ipv6actnow.org/ <%0Ahttp://ipv6actnow.org/>
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 16:14:36 +0300 Sergey <gforgx@fotontel.ru> wrote:
Are you *really* discussing what is abuse instead of dealing with it?
Hi Sergey, Thank you for pointing that out. yes, how does one deal with "abuse" - we cannot even agree what it is? Does society simply say to the person or organisation that hijacked a resource: "bad bad people! - give that resource here and go away!" or, I am going to null route your traffic! your child pornography is "abuse" and selling those poor children, so very bad - no more routing for you on my network! that will teach you! abuse, as a word means to misuse something. nothing to do with child slavery, theft, hijacking, and/or other crimes Anyway, we are then still here: "The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource" How that relates to spam for example - you are using your resources to infringe upon my bandwidth as your traffic is unsolicited rubbish that nobody wants. Then, damage is not abuse, abuse is the actual action, damage is the result of the action Andre
Yes, that is really gonna turn into a stand-up comics...
On 08/16/16 16:08, ox wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:38:49 +0200 David Hilario <fransossen@hotmail.com> wrote: <snip>
And when it comes to the definition discussed in this thread:
"The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
The RIPE NCC has also been quite active in that aspect too: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-662#----1-1-registry-maintenance...
Thank you for highlighting that "abuse" is decreasing. But, unfortunately, I do not know what abuse is, yet.
I want to distinguish between crime and abuse. this will make it easier in the future for Law enforcement, Prosecutors, Courts and society to understand that : Joe hijacked an IP range and this could be a crime, not just "abuse"
For one, I do not agree that unauthorized access is abuse (yet) I think it may be a crime in many countries, it may not be allowed in terms of each of our 'terms & conditions' of our own offerings or products and it is not tolerated, loved or even appreciated in any sane society, but is is not abuse.
Abuse itself, as a word in the English language is to "use something to bad effect or; to use something for bad purpose or; the improper use of something or; treating something poorly or badly,
not breaking into something or stealing and/or hijacking something
When you steal/hijack something and then use that for abuse, that becomes abuse.
If you just steal something, it is a crime called theft, which I am sure is illegal almost everywhere (afaik)
Maybe you can help, David?
When RIPE investigates "abuse" what are they investigating? Crimes? Criminal activity? Fraud? or actual abuse?
Andre
"1.1.6 Internet Number Resource Investigations, and Dispute and Hijacking Handling
Status: Decreasing
Measurable usage: The RIPE NCC has investigated 252 potential hijacks since 2012. From 1 July 2014 to 30 June 2015 the RIPE NCC handled 85 investigations. The RIPE NCC received and investigated 572 abuse reports from 1 July 2014 2014 to 30 June 2015."
Cheers, David
--srs
On 15/08/16, 8:56 PM, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net on behalf of andre _at_ ox.co _dot_ za> wrote:
Unauthorized access is NOT ABUSE, in terms of the current definition: "The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource"
And, this is the crux of it all, this defining of "abuse" is exactly why we require a definition.
Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum
On 16/08/16, 6:08 PM, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of David Hilario" <fransossen@hotmail.com> wrote:
The RIPE NCC is actually active in that field, providing "bogus" information as an LIR has lead to the closure of LIRs: https://www.ripe.net/about-us/legal/arbitration/summary-of-arbitration-rulin...
One of them, at any rate. Thanks! --srs
participants (4)
-
David Hilario -
ox -
Sergey -
Suresh Ramasubramanian