@EXT: RE: RIPE NCC Executive Board election
Sure, respecting the legal framework is the basis of our legal systems, and abiding to rules and legal procedures is paramount. This said, private companies can themselves act in such a way to discourage criminals to take advantage of their resources, through having rules in place that disallow certain behaviours. Kind regards, Sara Marcolla Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) www.europol.europa.eu<http://www.europol.europa.eu/> From: Maxi <maxi@zeug.co> Sent: 17 April 2020 10:58 To: Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu> Subject: Re: @EXT: RE: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election Dear Sara, This is not a personal attack on you, but I would handle your request like every other request from the police -> Go get a court order. When the RIPE would decide to block off abusive behaviour with out external orders, wouldn’t that open the RIPE to stuff like: “Hey in our country this and this party is abusive, lets delete the resources of them”? So no, I would not want the RIPE to make such decisions on her own. Maxi Impressum: Zeug e.K. Hochstraße 15 92637 Theisseil Inhaber: Maximilian Schieder Telefon: 015678 572314 E-Mail: maxi@zeug.co<mailto:maxi@zeug.co> Registergericht: Amtsgericht Weiden in der Oberpfalz Registernummer: HRA 2907 On 17. Apr 2020, at 10:54, Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu<mailto:Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu>> wrote: Hi Maxi, Technical innovation can be harnessed for social good, but just as readily for nefarious ends. This is truer of cybercrime than of perhaps any other crime area. And cybercriminals are also getting more aggressive. That’s why Europol and its partner organisations are taking the fight to them on all fronts. Encouraging all members of the Internet community to join the fight against crime is one of the objectives of the Cybercrime centre, and working together with public-private partnerships is the best way to achieve these results. If you are interested, you can find out more on our official website: https://www.europol.europa.eu/crime-areas-and-trends/crime-areas/cybercrime. Kind regards, Sara Marcolla Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) www.europol.europa.eu<http://www.europol.europa.eu/> From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net>>On Behalf Of Maxi Sent: 17 April 2020 10:43 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election Hey, Is this the official point of view from Europol? If so, please have in mind that the RIPE NCC has to follow certain court rules. The RIPE NCC should stay neutral, because only courts could decide if something is illegal or not. //Maxi Impressum: Zeug e.K. Hochstraße 15 92637 Theisseil Inhaber: Maximilian Schieder Telefon: 015678 572314 E-Mail: maxi@zeug.co<mailto:maxi@zeug.co> Registergericht: Amtsgericht Weiden in der Oberpfalz Registernummer: HRA 2907 ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. ******************* ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. *******************
All organizations can (and should) act on abusive behaviours to the extent possible, regardless of further work determining if that behaviour is also illegal or not. As Jordi said, policies exist for that purpose. To set boundaries of acceptable behavior and rules that define the posture of the community and the relations within the community. There’s a difference between being neutral and being passive. Regards Rogerio
On Apr 17, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu> wrote:
Sure, respecting the legal framework is the basis of our legal systems, and abiding to rules and legal procedures is paramount. This said, private companies can themselves act in such a way to discourage criminals to take advantage of their resources, through having rules in place that disallow certain behaviours.
Kind regards,
Sara Marcolla
Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) www.europol.europa.eu <http://www.europol.europa.eu/>
From: Maxi <maxi@zeug.co <mailto:maxi@zeug.co>> Sent: 17 April 2020 10:58 To: Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu <mailto:Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu>> Subject: Re: @EXT: RE: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election
Dear Sara, This is not a personal attack on you, but I would handle your request like every other request from the police -> Go get a court order.
When the RIPE would decide to block off abusive behaviour with out external orders, wouldn’t that open the RIPE to stuff like: “Hey in our country this and this party is abusive, lets delete the resources of them”?
So no, I would not want the RIPE to make such decisions on her own.
Maxi
Impressum: Zeug e.K. Hochstraße 15 92637 Theisseil
Inhaber: Maximilian Schieder
Telefon: 015678 572314 E-Mail: maxi@zeug.co <mailto:maxi@zeug.co>
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Weiden in der Oberpfalz Registernummer: HRA 2907
On 17. Apr 2020, at 10:54, Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu <mailto:Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu>> wrote:
Hi Maxi,
Technical innovation can be harnessed for social good, but just as readily for nefarious ends. This is truer of cybercrime than of perhaps any other crime area. And cybercriminals are also getting more aggressive. That’s why Europol and its partner organisations are taking the fight to them on all fronts.
Encouraging all members of the Internet community to join the fight against crime is one of the objectives of the Cybercrime centre, and working together with public-private partnerships is the best way to achieve these results. If you are interested, you can find out more on our official website: https://www.europol.europa.eu/crime-areas-and-trends/crime-areas/cybercrime <https://www.europol.europa.eu/crime-areas-and-trends/crime-areas/cybercrime>.
Kind regards,
Sara Marcolla
Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) www.europol.europa.eu <http://www.europol.europa.eu/>
From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net>>On Behalf Of Maxi Sent: 17 April 2020 10:43 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election
Hey, Is this the official point of view from Europol? If so, please have in mind that the RIPE NCC has to follow certain court rules. The RIPE NCC should stay neutral, because only courts could decide if something is illegal or not.
//Maxi
Impressum: Zeug e.K. Hochstraße 15 92637 Theisseil
Inhaber: Maximilian Schieder
Telefon: 015678 572314 E-Mail: maxi@zeug.co <mailto:maxi@zeug.co>
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Weiden in der Oberpfalz Registernummer: HRA 2907
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I second that In fact there is much more than just codified law. For example most of the international law ha never been codified, refereed to as customary law, but is still enforceable in court. What we re talking about here are so called Norms: Often non-binding, Norms describe expected behavior. I give you a simple example: Ther is now law, that say you must wash yourself. But try to to do so for a few weeks, and then (once Covid-19 is over) go into a full bus and see what happens. This oversimplifies. But we can and should have norms that make the internet function well. And in fact there are over 160 norms that specifically apply to cyber space. Even the UN (through the UN GGE and the OEWG, create norms for responsible behavior in cyber space. There is nothing that stops us from doing the same in this corner of internet policy. Neutrality does not imply the absence of values. If we want the internet to be usable and safe for users, we need to come up with what is acceptable behavior and what is not. There may be a time where these are tested in court, but until then let's just make sure we give our best to keep the internet safe and free from criminals. Best Serge On 17.04.20 11:05, Marcolla, Sara Veronica wrote:
Sure, respecting the legal framework is the basis of our legal systems, and abiding to rules and legal procedures is paramount. This said, private companies can themselves act in such a way to discourage criminals to take advantage of their resources, through having rules in place that disallow certain behaviours.
Kind regards,
* *
*Sara Marcolla*
*Europol - *O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3)
www.europol.europa.eu <http://www.europol.europa.eu/>
*From:*Maxi <maxi@zeug.co> *Sent:* 17 April 2020 10:58 *To:* Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu> *Subject:* Re: @EXT: RE: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election
Dear Sara,
This is not a personal attack on you, but I would handle your request like every other request from the police -> Go get a court order.
When the RIPE would decide to block off abusive behaviour with out external orders, wouldn’t that open the RIPE to stuff like: “Hey in our country this and this party is abusive, lets delete the resources of them”?
So no, I would not want the RIPE to make such decisions on her own.
Maxi
Impressum: Zeug e.K. Hochstraße 15 92637 Theisseil
Inhaber: Maximilian Schieder
Telefon: 015678 572314 E-Mail: maxi@zeug.co <mailto:maxi@zeug.co>
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Weiden in der Oberpfalz Registernummer: HRA 2907
On 17. Apr 2020, at 10:54, Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu <mailto:Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu>> wrote:
Hi Maxi,
Technical innovation can be harnessed for social good, but just as readily for nefarious ends. This is truer of cybercrime than of perhaps any other crime area. And cybercriminals are also getting more aggressive. That’s why Europol and its partner organisations are taking the fight to them on all fronts.
Encouraging all members of the Internet community to join the fight against crime is one of the objectives of the Cybercrime centre, and working together with public-private partnerships is the best way to achieve these results. If you are interested, you can find out more on our official website: https://www.europol.europa.eu/crime-areas-and-trends/crime-areas/cybercrime.
Kind regards,
* *
*Sara Marcolla*
*Europol - *O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3)
www.europol.europa.eu <http://www.europol.europa.eu/>
*From:* anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net <mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net>>*On Behalf Of *Maxi *Sent:* 17 April 2020 10:43 *To:* anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> *Subject:* Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election
Hey,
Is this the official point of view from Europol?
If so, please have in mind that the RIPE NCC has to follow certain court rules. The RIPE NCC should stay neutral, because only courts could decide if something is illegal or not.
//Maxi
Impressum: Zeug e.K. Hochstraße 15 92637 Theisseil
Inhaber: Maximilian Schieder
Telefon: 015678 572314 E-Mail: maxi@zeug.co <mailto:maxi@zeug.co>
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Weiden in der Oberpfalz Registernummer: HRA 2907
*******************
DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated.
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DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated.
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-- Dr. Serge Droz Chair of the FIRST Board of Directors https://www.first.org
Serge, On Apr 17, 2020, at 2:15 AM, Serge Droz via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Even the UN (through the UN GGE and the OEWG, create norms for responsible behavior in cyber space.
There is nothing that stops us from doing the same in this corner of internet policy.
Perhaps not the best example. UN "Global Group of Experts” (GGE) tried to come up with “cyber norms", but ultimately failed to get their norms accepted (that is, they were unable to come to consensus on the final report). As a result, another round of UN GGE (https://www.un.org/disarmament/group-of-governmental-experts/ <https://www.un.org/disarmament/group-of-governmental-experts/>) kicked off and a parallel effort, the Open Ended Working Group, is also trying to come up with a set of cyber norms, albeit with a larger set of players. However, the reason (in my view) the UN cyber norm efforts have failed to date is the same reason we see failures to come up with agreed upon policies here: the norms would impact self-interest in a way that is unacceptable to parties who have the ability to derail progress.
Neutrality does not imply the absence of values. If we want the internet to be usable and safe for users, we need to come up with what is acceptable behavior and what is not.
My impression is that the issue that derails consensus here is whether or not RIPE-NCC is the appropriate enforcer of “acceptable behavior”. Regards, -drc
Hi David Thanks for the feedback. - UN GGE: The 2015 group came up with a consensus report: https://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/70/174 The 2017 failed. Personally I think, because the rising tensions in the global political climate, but that's another discussion. And I feat the current GGE as well as the OEWG will face the same fate. These are not good times for international state agreements. I completely agree with your assessment here. Re RIPE: I guess so. But if RIPE is seen as representing the community, than it should be ok for RIPE to enforce the community view. It was said here before: If we fail as an informal community here, than others will take this into their hands, and that will likely no procude a better result. Best Serge On 19/04/2020 00:07, David Conrad wrote:
Serge,
On Apr 17, 2020, at 2:15 AM, Serge Droz via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>> wrote:
Even the UN (through the UN GGE and the OEWG, create norms for responsible behavior in cyber space.
There is nothing that stops us from doing the same in this corner of internet policy.
Perhaps not the best example. UN "Global Group of Experts” (GGE) tried to come up with “cyber norms", but ultimately failed to get their norms accepted (that is, they were unable to come to consensus on the final report). As a result, another round of UN GGE (https://www.un.org/disarmament/group-of-governmental-experts/) kicked off and a parallel effort, the Open Ended Working Group, is also trying to come up with a set of cyber norms, albeit with a larger set of players.
However, the reason (in my view) the UN cyber norm efforts have failed to date is the same reason we see failures to come up with agreed upon policies here: the norms would impact self-interest in a way that is unacceptable to parties who have the ability to derail progress.
Neutrality does not imply the absence of values. If we want the internet to be usable and safe for users, we need to come up with what is acceptable behavior and what is not.
My impression is that the issue that derails consensus here is whether or not RIPE-NCC is the appropriate enforcer of “acceptable behavior”.
Regards, -drc
-- Dr. Serge Droz Chair, Forum of Incident Response and Security Teams (FIRST) Phone +41 76 542 44 93 | serge.droz@first.org | https://www.first.org
Hi, On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:19:27AM +0200, Serge Droz via anti-abuse-wg wrote:
Re RIPE: I guess so.
But if RIPE is seen as representing the community, than it should be ok for RIPE to enforce the community view.
And there is the crux: you talk about "RIPE", but you imply "I want the RIPE *NCC* do something". Different bodies. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
participants (5)
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David Conrad -
Gert Doering -
Marcolla, Sara Veronica -
Rogério Raposo -
Serge Droz