I know him and trust him enough to have workable proposals. So, thank you very much for your opinion but I’m afraid I fail to share it. From: Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io> Date: Wednesday, 2 December 2020 at 8:38 PM To: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com>, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com>, IP Abuse Research <ipabuseresearch@gmail.com>, Serge Droz <serge.droz@first.org> Cc: "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] IPv4 squatting -- Courtesy of AS44050, AS58552 Mr. Michele have no proposals, all he can do is to complain. ________________________________ From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 4:56 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com>; IP Abuse Research <ipabuseresearch@gmail.com>; Serge Droz <serge.droz@first.org> Cc: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] IPv4 squatting -- Courtesy of AS44050, AS58552 Please feel free to come up with workable proposals then 😊 At leat that way the conversation stays operational From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Date: Wednesday, 2 December 2020 at 8:14 PM To: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com>, IP Abuse Research <ipabuseresearch@gmail.com>, Serge Droz <serge.droz@first.org> Cc: "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] IPv4 squatting -- Courtesy of AS44050, AS58552 I don’t think it’s simply a matter of two sides, which your language attempts to categorise it as. Some of us refuse to have our processes and businesses dictated to by people who won’t listen to reasonable arguments against their unworkable proposals -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday 2 December 2020 at 14:06 To: IP Abuse Research <ipabuseresearch@gmail.com>, Serge Droz <serge.droz@first.org> Cc: "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] IPv4 squatting -- Courtesy of AS44050, AS58552 +1 – most of the activity on this list has been people from the anti abuse community come up with suggestions that the RIPE regulars find unworkable, and then many people spend lots of time pointing out why the proposal is unworkable. So far I have not seen one case of a proposal coming in from the other side on what can be done instead to achieve the goals of the unworkable proposal, but have a chance of working under RIPE policies and procedures. From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of IP Abuse Research <ipabuseresearch@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, 2 December 2020 at 7:25 PM To: Serge Droz <serge.droz@first.org> Cc: "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] IPv4 squatting -- Courtesy of AS44050, AS58552 I'd like to second Serge's sentiment, RFG catches a good deal of abuse for his contributions, which we have all seen on this and other lists. What the continued findings indicate is a need for IANA and the RIRs to adapt to a new stage in the resource issuance and governance lifecycle. Since this is by definition a working group, would it make sense to establish some metrics to quantify the perceived impact of this phenomenon on abuse? If we establish a process to collect these observations of either "abandoned" resources, prefixes or ASNs, which then re-appear mysteriously or in the case of an ASN start routing space that is unexpectedly, "hijack", we can take a step as a community to quantify the phenomenon? Note: This is specifically not an internet policing function as much as a neighborhood watch effort to help inform the governing bodies / policy ... etc. Right now from responses it seems like defacto this weight has been put onto the shoulder of Spamhaus vs. having a working group work on a solution. If this is of interest I'm happy to write up a proposal and or work with the chairs to see if this is something that is seen as constructive. Also if this doesn't fit into the anti-abuse working group ... where does it fit? On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 3:12 AM Serge Droz via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>> wrote: First of: Congrats and thank you Ronald for this work. What makes me a bit sad is, that posting this here immediately starts a discussion about what is expected behavior on these lists, rather than how we could combat abuse more efficiently. It seems a seeminglu, to me at least, humorous remark, sparks more discussion than the troubling fact that criminals have the time of their lives during this period of time. I'm all in favor of staying civil on public fora. But noting in the original post was not civil. I am wondering what the we want to achieve here on the anti-abuse list? Call me stupid, but I just don't get it. Best Serge On 01.12.20 22:48, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:

In message <DB7PR06MB501791137C12E71EA525C7DD94F40@DB7PR06MB5017.eurprd06.prod. outlook.com<http://outlook.com>>, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie<mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie>> wrote:

...

However I suspect that X-posting to a list like apnic-talk may not be the wisest idea, given the different populations etc...

It is among my fondest hopes that cybercriminals of all stripes, and particularly the ones who squat on IPv4 space that doesn't belong to them, will, in future, show more respect for regional boundaries, such that their devious activities will only oblige me to notify the members of a single one of the five RIR regions regarding any single one of these elaborate criminal schemes. Alas, in this instance however, the perpetrators, in a very unsportsmanlike manner, elected to make messes whose roots were found in both the RIPE region and also in the APNIC region. (And that's not even to mention that most of the squatted IPv4 real estate was and is under the administration of the ARIN region.)

Clearly, authorities in all five regions should be devoting somewhat more effort towards the cultivation of a better and more respectful class of cybercriminals who will confine their convoluted schemes to their own home regions.

Regards, rfg

-- Dr. Serge Droz Chair of the FIRST Board of Directors https://www.first.org