Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Definition of Abuse
Yes that is what I said about a legal obligation versus good citizenship --srs
On 17-Aug-2016, at 2:46 PM, ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:38:09 +0530 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the term that's being collectively groped for is whether ripe ncc has a reporting obligation in case it discovers criminal activity
The number of cases where such reporting is mandatory in law and not simply a matter of good citizenship is rather limited - threat to life, kidnap, etc.
No, not so much...
It is not a "point of view" whether RIPE has the obligation to file criminal complaints when there is fraud committed against RIPE
Under Dutch Law, We have already heard how RIPE is registered...
In fact, if it was a public company, it would not be much different either..
Speaking generally, in most places in the world where you are working or operating the assets of someone other than yourself their are many additional things that become relevant to your own operation...
I think that we may want to hear from RIPE legal in that regard
But, what I am also saying is that socially, civil society and simple ethics and good custodial management, basic decency and so very very many other things demand that RIPE files criminal complaints when there is crime.
For example: Should an official of RIPE steal money at RIPE there is an obligation to file a criminal complaint.
Same principles apply all throughout
Andre
--srs
On 17-Aug-2016, at 2:26 PM, Rob Evans <rhe@nosc.ja.net> wrote:
When anyone commits fraud to obtain a resource from RIPE, RIPE has the responsibility to file criminal charges against that criminal.
I am not saying that I think RIPE should file criminal charges, I am saying that not doing so is in itself a questionable action.
Well, to be pedantic, *criminal* charges are filed by the police or other law-enforcment body, not by companies. :)
Rob
On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:49:40 +0530 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes that is what I said about a legal obligation versus good citizenship
Okay, but ianal but RIPE **does have the obligation to report crime**, legally. RIPE is not a 'citizen' it is a **public** legal person with certain rights and obligations, if RIPE was a private organization or private person there would be different legal obligations. There surely is no obligation on RIPE to go and investigate submitted data? Only when (or if) RIPE becomes aware of a fraud or fraudulent representation, or theft, or any crime, does it of course have to report that crime - this we may have to check with RIPE legal as it is law and not for discussions I think at the moment RIPE simply does not know or realize that it is fraud to make false representations in order to obtain a resource... I am sure that if there is theft of cash/money at RIPE, then RIPE will report that theft. Anyway, this is the same problem with the definition of abuse and why it needs to be properly defined (so that I understand what is crime - what is abuse and everything in between) Just for the record: We are still here with the definition of abuse: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The non sanctioned use of a resource to infringe upon the usage rights of another resource" Current discussions about what needs to be added still? (add if I am missing anyone or anything please) (1) Gert Doering suggested that "there are legal reason why someone could infringe on someon else's use rights" - added the 'non sanctioned' (2) unauthorized access / hacking / and/or breaking in ( Dave Crocker - abuse concerns unauthorized access ) (Andre - breaking in is crime, abuse is use something for bad purpose ) (3) causing damage to others ( Dave Crocker - "and to actions that inflict damage on others" ) ( Michele Neylon - I like the idea of “damage” or “harm” on others The “infringe on usage .. “ thing didn’t seem very clear to me and I don’t see how that would apply to spam etc) (Andre - damage is a result of an action or result of abuse? crime?) (4) Fake WHOIS records (Ronald F. Guilmette some whois records are cleverly constructed bovine excrement ) (Andre - fake/wrong whois records - are not abuse - is an error or it is fraud or something else) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andre
--srs
On 17-Aug-2016, at 2:46 PM, ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:38:09 +0530 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the term that's being collectively groped for is whether ripe ncc has a reporting obligation in case it discovers criminal activity
The number of cases where such reporting is mandatory in law and not simply a matter of good citizenship is rather limited - threat to life, kidnap, etc.
No, not so much...
It is not a "point of view" whether RIPE has the obligation to file criminal complaints when there is fraud committed against RIPE
Under Dutch Law, We have already heard how RIPE is registered...
In fact, if it was a public company, it would not be much different either..
Speaking generally, in most places in the world where you are working or operating the assets of someone other than yourself their are many additional things that become relevant to your own operation...
I think that we may want to hear from RIPE legal in that regard
But, what I am also saying is that socially, civil society and simple ethics and good custodial management, basic decency and so very very many other things demand that RIPE files criminal complaints when there is crime.
For example: Should an official of RIPE steal money at RIPE there is an obligation to file a criminal complaint.
Same principles apply all throughout
Andre
--srs
On 17-Aug-2016, at 2:26 PM, Rob Evans <rhe@nosc.ja.net> wrote:
When anyone commits fraud to obtain a resource from RIPE, RIPE has the responsibility to file criminal charges against that criminal.
I am not saying that I think RIPE should file criminal charges, I am saying that not doing so is in itself a questionable action.
Well, to be pedantic, *criminal* charges are filed by the police or other law-enforcment body, not by companies. :)
Rob
participants (2)
-
ox -
Suresh Ramasubramanian