Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Anti-Abuse Training: Next Steps & WG Input!
I don’t think we can, neither should, define what is abuse. Examples are ok, but should be clear that are only examples of common considered abuse activities and not necessarily inclusive/restrictive of all the possible situations. It all depends on the origin of the claim. Simple examples: In country “a”, unsolicited email maybe legally considered abuse, but not in the country “b” of the origin of that spam. You can even take out of the question the “legal” part, if you want. In country “c” attempt to ssh to hosts from other folks is a criminal action, but in country “d” (origin of the problem) is not. The problem here is to ensure that if you get a claim for a presumed abuse, you’re able to process it, even up to the point to say “sorry” in our jurisdiction or best current practices, or internal policy or AUP ... whatever, this is not an abuse so we can’t accept your claim, or otherwise, “we are handling it … we have resolved that this way”. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 10/2/22 10:25, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> escribió: Colleagues, Since we last spoke about the proposed training the NCC have been working with various community members to put a draft syllabus in place for further discussion. This is a link to the feedback document for this draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M9Wrqu-VKGGwMfJQGK0NlTs5UzH6xJ2_HR2MkTBV... What the NCC and the Co-Chairs would love is if everybody could just comment what they think they understand from the learning goals as they’re written and suggest any changes or additions and obviously ask any questions. We’d also like the feedback on the webinar flow design. It’s important for everybody to understand that the learning objectives are the basis for the training. These are the skills that the learner must acquire. With these skills we also expect a change of attitude towards abuse handling (which is we think the purpose of this training). While discussion on the list is welcomed and encouraged, we've also planned a Zoom session for any interested parties to discuss this further. This will take place on Wednesday 23rd February at 14:00 CET: https://ripe.zoom.us/j/8221791822?pwd=ZFY0MnNQeWJsTkhQSFlyeEZlUkNJQT09 Meeting ID: 822 179 1822 Passcode: 1277 Hopefully with discussion on list and at the session on the 23rd we can move this into a final draft and progress from there. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
I disagree Some types of network activity are not going to be welcome anywhere. Some kinds of use of networks and platforms are not welcome by most people. Please show me ANY COUNTRY where CSAM is legal. And “legality” is NOT the bar. Never has been. If we don’t try to deal with this then governments will probably step in and try to force their views on us, no matter how unworkable they are. -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Date: Tuesday, 15 February 2022 at 11:40 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Anti-Abuse Training: Next Steps & WG Input! [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources. I don’t think we can, neither should, define what is abuse. Examples are ok, but should be clear that are only examples of common considered abuse activities and not necessarily inclusive/restrictive of all the possible situations. It all depends on the origin of the claim. Simple examples: In country “a”, unsolicited email maybe legally considered abuse, but not in the country “b” of the origin of that spam. You can even take out of the question the “legal” part, if you want. In country “c” attempt to ssh to hosts from other folks is a criminal action, but in country “d” (origin of the problem) is not. The problem here is to ensure that if you get a claim for a presumed abuse, you’re able to process it, even up to the point to say “sorry” in our jurisdiction or best current practices, or internal policy or AUP ... whatever, this is not an abuse so we can’t accept your claim, or otherwise, “we are handling it … we have resolved that this way”. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 10/2/22 10:25, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de brian.nisbet@heanet.ie<mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie>> escribió: Colleagues, Since we last spoke about the proposed training the NCC have been working with various community members to put a draft syllabus in place for further discussion. This is a link to the feedback document for this draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M9Wrqu-VKGGwMfJQGK0NlTs5UzH6xJ2_HR2MkTBV... What the NCC and the Co-Chairs would love is if everybody could just comment what they think they understand from the learning goals as they’re written and suggest any changes or additions and obviously ask any questions. We’d also like the feedback on the webinar flow design. It’s important for everybody to understand that the learning objectives are the basis for the training. These are the skills that the learner must acquire. With these skills we also expect a change of attitude towards abuse handling (which is we think the purpose of this training). While discussion on the list is welcomed and encouraged, we've also planned a Zoom session for any interested parties to discuss this further. This will take place on Wednesday 23rd February at 14:00 CET: https://ripe.zoom.us/j/8221791822?pwd=ZFY0MnNQeWJsTkhQSFlyeEZlUkNJQT09 Meeting ID: 822 179 1822 Passcode: 1277 Hopefully with discussion on list and at the session on the 23rd we can move this into a final draft and progress from there. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
I just put a couple of examples. If we define abuse in a fix way, future ways to abuse will remain excluded. It is a matter of how we word it. We just need to explain this very well in trainings, not define “abuse”. I don’t recall specific countries, but in several African countries, when discussing the anti-abuse policies in AFRINIC, we got those comments. And now that you mention it, are you sure that CSAM is illegal in 100% of the countries? There may be countries where legislation even don’t mention it. So it is a perfect example of what I’m saying. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 17/2/22 13:43, "Michele Neylon - Blacknight" <michele@blacknight.com> escribió: I disagree Some types of network activity are not going to be welcome anywhere. Some kinds of use of networks and platforms are not welcome by most people. Please show me ANY COUNTRY where CSAM is legal. And “legality” is NOT the bar. Never has been. If we don’t try to deal with this then governments will probably step in and try to force their views on us, no matter how unworkable they are. -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Date: Tuesday, 15 February 2022 at 11:40 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Anti-Abuse Training: Next Steps & WG Input! [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources. I don’t think we can, neither should, define what is abuse. Examples are ok, but should be clear that are only examples of common considered abuse activities and not necessarily inclusive/restrictive of all the possible situations. It all depends on the origin of the claim. Simple examples: In country “a”, unsolicited email maybe legally considered abuse, but not in the country “b” of the origin of that spam. You can even take out of the question the “legal” part, if you want. In country “c” attempt to ssh to hosts from other folks is a criminal action, but in country “d” (origin of the problem) is not. The problem here is to ensure that if you get a claim for a presumed abuse, you’re able to process it, even up to the point to say “sorry” in our jurisdiction or best current practices, or internal policy or AUP ... whatever, this is not an abuse so we can’t accept your claim, or otherwise, “we are handling it … we have resolved that this way”. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 10/2/22 10:25, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> escribió: Colleagues, Since we last spoke about the proposed training the NCC have been working with various community members to put a draft syllabus in place for further discussion. This is a link to the feedback document for this draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M9Wrqu-VKGGwMfJQGK0NlTs5UzH6xJ2_HR2MkTBV... What the NCC and the Co-Chairs would love is if everybody could just comment what they think they understand from the learning goals as they’re written and suggest any changes or additions and obviously ask any questions. We’d also like the feedback on the webinar flow design. It’s important for everybody to understand that the learning objectives are the basis for the training. These are the skills that the learner must acquire. With these skills we also expect a change of attitude towards abuse handling (which is we think the purpose of this training). While discussion on the list is welcomed and encouraged, we've also planned a Zoom session for any interested parties to discuss this further. This will take place on Wednesday 23rd February at 14:00 CET: https://ripe.zoom.us/j/8221791822?pwd=ZFY0MnNQeWJsTkhQSFlyeEZlUkNJQT09 Meeting ID: 822 179 1822 Passcode: 1277 Hopefully with discussion on list and at the session on the 23rd we can move this into a final draft and progress from there. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
You really want to claim that CSAM is legal somewhere? I can assure you that it is NOT -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Date: Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 13:52 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Anti-Abuse Training: Next Steps & WG Input! [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources. I just put a couple of examples. If we define abuse in a fix way, future ways to abuse will remain excluded. It is a matter of how we word it. We just need to explain this very well in trainings, not define “abuse”. I don’t recall specific countries, but in several African countries, when discussing the anti-abuse policies in AFRINIC, we got those comments. And now that you mention it, are you sure that CSAM is illegal in 100% of the countries? There may be countries where legislation even don’t mention it. So it is a perfect example of what I’m saying. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 17/2/22 13:43, "Michele Neylon - Blacknight" <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> escribió: I disagree Some types of network activity are not going to be welcome anywhere. Some kinds of use of networks and platforms are not welcome by most people. Please show me ANY COUNTRY where CSAM is legal. And “legality” is NOT the bar. Never has been. If we don’t try to deal with this then governments will probably step in and try to force their views on us, no matter how unworkable they are. -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Date: Tuesday, 15 February 2022 at 11:40 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Anti-Abuse Training: Next Steps & WG Input! [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources. I don’t think we can, neither should, define what is abuse. Examples are ok, but should be clear that are only examples of common considered abuse activities and not necessarily inclusive/restrictive of all the possible situations. It all depends on the origin of the claim. Simple examples: In country “a”, unsolicited email maybe legally considered abuse, but not in the country “b” of the origin of that spam. You can even take out of the question the “legal” part, if you want. In country “c” attempt to ssh to hosts from other folks is a criminal action, but in country “d” (origin of the problem) is not. The problem here is to ensure that if you get a claim for a presumed abuse, you’re able to process it, even up to the point to say “sorry” in our jurisdiction or best current practices, or internal policy or AUP ... whatever, this is not an abuse so we can’t accept your claim, or otherwise, “we are handling it … we have resolved that this way”. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 10/2/22 10:25, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de brian.nisbet@heanet.ie<mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie>> escribió: Colleagues, Since we last spoke about the proposed training the NCC have been working with various community members to put a draft syllabus in place for further discussion. This is a link to the feedback document for this draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M9Wrqu-VKGGwMfJQGK0NlTs5UzH6xJ2_HR2MkTBV... What the NCC and the Co-Chairs would love is if everybody could just comment what they think they understand from the learning goals as they’re written and suggest any changes or additions and obviously ask any questions. We’d also like the feedback on the webinar flow design. It’s important for everybody to understand that the learning objectives are the basis for the training. These are the skills that the learner must acquire. With these skills we also expect a change of attitude towards abuse handling (which is we think the purpose of this training). While discussion on the list is welcomed and encouraged, we've also planned a Zoom session for any interested parties to discuss this further. This will take place on Wednesday 23rd February at 14:00 CET: https://ripe.zoom.us/j/8221791822?pwd=ZFY0MnNQeWJsTkhQSFlyeEZlUkNJQT09 Meeting ID: 822 179 1822 Passcode: 1277 Hopefully with discussion on list and at the session on the 23rd we can move this into a final draft and progress from there. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
participants (2)
-
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight