Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom.
I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see)
Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet.
Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses. Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign. Regards, rfg
On Mon, 28 May 2018 12:13:32 -0700 "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg@tristatelogic.com> wrote: <snip>
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
or read a Tweet from the President of the United States that says the evil democratic party is responsible for the separation of little children from their refugee parents - whereas and in truth it is the President himself that is responsible. - And innocent little children are being "lost" by the thousands by the American Government? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/us/trump-immigrant-children-lost.html The USA and US citizens have lost credibility or any moral high ground. As far as Fox news are concerned (are they the people that say "Good Morning President Trump", when broadcasting to the US each morning?) As far as Internet Abuse and 'private' "researchers" are concerned: So, private researchers have 'rights' to obtain other 'private' people's private information? I cannot wait for the EU to yet again lead the world with ePrivacy as all the USA does is dominate, control, track, divide and so many other negative things. The EU has become an innovator, protector and Internet light.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and
violation of human rights? wow. Your government loses innocent little children and you have the audacity to lecture? When you take a little baby or a 2 year old (still also a baby) and LOSE that human person? Have you no shame? With whatever respect you deserve: You cannot lecture or comment on "state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights" As your own country is part of the problem, that others have to help you solve and resolve. As for abuse and as to how this all relates to abuse: It is mostly US companies that are infringing on the privacy of citizens of all other countries. I need not rehash how the top USA Internet companies abuse children, develop technology to kill people or completely colonise and enslave developing societies. or even lose the little babies they have violently dragged from the hands of their mothers. Andre
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one. Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners. "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions. Best, Volker Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted All security practitioners protect our respective services and networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and phish campaigns. Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and that only after an extensive dossier is built internally to show that the perps in question justify a - frequently cross border - law enforcement action. Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish more people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource and administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is saddled with ________________________________ From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one. Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners. "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions. Best, Volker Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. There are other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting infrastructures used, etc. all of which will continue to be available for the uses you refer to. And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and international cooperation. Best, Volker Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian:
This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted
All security practitioners protect our respective services and networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and phish campaigns.
Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and that only after an extensive dossier is built internally to show that the perps in question justify a - frequently cross border - law enforcement action.
Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish more people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource and administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is saddled with
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM *To:* anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: public
WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of hours, you get spam. Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it facilitates the resolution of abuse cases. The balance is always difficult ... Regards, Jordi De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com>, "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. There are other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting infrastructures used, etc. all of which will continue to be available for the uses you refer to. And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and international cooperation. Best, Volker Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted All security practitioners protect our respective services and networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and phish campaigns. Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and that only after an extensive dossier is built internally to show that the perps in question justify a - frequently cross border - law enforcement action. Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish more people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource and administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is saddled with From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one. Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners. "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions. Best, Volker Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do nothing. Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely correct. The trouble is that network operators are resistant to accept the responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing abuse Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional registrar abuse email address. The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by this RR Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of hours, you get spam. Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it facilitates the resolution of abuse cases. The balance is always difficult ... Regards, Jordi
De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com>, "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. There are other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting infrastructures used, etc. all of which will continue to be available for the uses you refer to.
And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and international cooperation.
Best,
Volker
Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian:
This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted
All security practitioners protect our respective services and networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and phish campaigns.
Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and that only after an extensive dossier is built internally to show that the perps in question justify a - frequently cross border - law enforcement action.
Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish more people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource and administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is saddled with
From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
In message <5F2D3EAE-BF59-4E61-B17B-BF45F3DF0922@consulintel.es>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things.
Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of hours, you get spam.
This is an entirely specious argument used in an attempt to justify a ridiculous conclusion. It's like saying that if one goes out out of one's home, then there is a finite non-zero chance that one will be run over by a drunk driver, and that therefore, everyone should stay inside and never leave their homes. This "solution" is being offered in place of the obvious one, i.e. working to identify drunk drivers and then working to get them off the roads (or equivalently, working to identify spammers and then working to get them off the Internet, which is what I do). To be clear, I really don't care if any set of private citizens decide for themselves, and of their own free will, that they should never leave their homes in order to avoid ever being run over. That's their choice to make. What I -do- mind is regional governmental bodies, such as the unelected European Council, dictating to me, and to everyone else on the planet, European or otherwise, that we all -must- deal with the problem of drunk drivers by staying inside our homes 24/7. Just because you Europeans have become infected with some kind of obscure mental disease that impairs your abilities to think clearly, or to effectively differentiate reasonable solutions to problems from silly ones, do you really have to go around *spreading* this disease to the rest of the world? (I won't even ask what makes you all think that you have the divine right to do so. I doubt that the answer would be any different today than it was in the year 1095.) Regards, rfg
Ronald, We understand that you are against the application of GDPR to the ICANN Whois. So noted. However your language below repeatedly goes beyond what I believe is acceptable under the RIPE Community Code of Conduct. You are insulting people both in broad swathes and specific instances. As I said, there is no problem expressing your opinion of any law, proposal or idea, but please do so without any ad hominem attacks nor repeated references to imagined groups. Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
-----Original Message----- From: anti-abuse-wg [mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Ronald F. Guilmette Sent: 29 May 2018 20:17 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
In message <5F2D3EAE-BF59-4E61-B17B-BF45F3DF0922@consulintel.es>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things.
Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of hours, you get spam.
This is an entirely specious argument used in an attempt to justify a ridiculous conclusion.
It's like saying that if one goes out out of one's home, then there is a finite non-zero chance that one will be run over by a drunk driver, and that therefore, everyone should stay inside and never leave their homes. This "solution" is being offered in place of the obvious one, i.e. working to identify drunk drivers and then working to get them off the roads (or equivalently, working to identify spammers and then working to get them off the Internet, which is what I do).
To be clear, I really don't care if any set of private citizens decide for themselves, and of their own free will, that they should never leave their homes in order to avoid ever being run over. That's their choice to make. What I -do- mind is regional governmental bodies, such as the unelected European Council, dictating to me, and to everyone else on the planet, European or otherwise, that we all -must- deal with the problem of drunk drivers by staying inside our homes 24/7.
Just because you Europeans have become infected with some kind of obscure mental disease that impairs your abilities to think clearly, or to effectively differentiate reasonable solutions to problems from silly ones, do you really have to go around *spreading* this disease to the rest of the world?
(I won't even ask what makes you all think that you have the divine right to do so. I doubt that the answer would be any different today than it was in the year 1095.)
Regards, rfg
In message <VI1PR06MB1597BE45297322F4B338E0AD946D0@VI1PR06MB1597.eurprd06.prod. outlook.com>, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
We understand that you are against the application of GDPR to the ICANN Whois. So noted.
However your language below repeatedly goes beyond what I believe is acceptable under the RIPE Community Code of Conduct. You are insulting people both in broad swathes and specific instances.
That is clearly not the case. I have insulted no individual and you cannot show otherwise. I do take issue... as do numerous polititians -and- a majority of the voters in the UK... with the absurditities being doled out by unelected European Council regulators. To call their unilateral edicts idiotic is actually an example of admirable restraint on my part. I could have been, and arguably should have been considerably more blunt.
As I said, there is no problem expressing your opinion of any law, proposal or idea, but please do so without any ad hominem attacks nor repeated references to imagined groups.
Brian, I can only suggest that you refresh your understanding of the term "ad hominem", which you clearly misapply here. Google provides a generally accepted definition: ad ho.mi.nem adverb & adjective adverb: ad hominem; adjective: ad hominem 1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. "vicious ad hominem attacks" 2. relating to or associated with a particular person. "the office was created ad hominem for Fenton" As you personally have leveled the charge, I ask you personally Brian, what person, specifically, have I insulted? What person, specifically, has been the alleged victim of my alleged ad hominum? In this case your objection seems altogether less about my alleged lack of proper decorum, and altogether more about the fact that you personally don't agree with the message. And by the way, none of the following groups, about which I have commented, are in any sense "imagined": domain registrants domain registrars domain registries ICANN The European Council If you believe that any of these groups are illusory, then perhaps you will be kind enough to explain that view for the benefit and enlightment of all here. Regards, rfg
On Tue, 29 May 2018 19:43:08 -0700 "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg@tristatelogic.com> wrote:
As you personally have leveled the charge, I ask you personally Brian, what person, specifically, have I insulted? What person, specifically, has been the alleged victim of my alleged ad hominum?
Well, many people. let me start with myself: You claim that my opinions are rubbish and you compare my opinions to those same people (Fox/Republicans) whom: violently take babies away from mommies - yes, at a border Americans grab little babies from the hands of their mothers and take the mommy and the little baby to different "detention" facilities. and then go on and LOSE the babies, in the past some of the children were sold into slavery. In America. And you compare my opinion, about the EU, to these people? That is completely unacceptable, insulting and most definately a perfect example of ad hominum. (and ignorance) Here is the exchange:
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. +++++++++++++++
Then, you go on to insult and abuse all Europeans (which also, by the way, includes me) You type: "due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not." Now, I am not saying that I did not insult anyone, and for my part, I do apologise and I did stop. But your ongoing attacks and personal attacks, here now against Brian directly, is not only upsetting but is uncalled for and is disgusting. Andre
In message <9d061c1e-2d17-48b1-fc72-3c08026bbf2c@key-systems.net>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions.
I am compelled to point out, once again, the fundamentally demented nature of this new-fangled "entitlement" insanity that has been invented, literally out of whole cloth, and within just the past few years by various self-appointed "privacy advocates" in Europe and elsewhere. When exactly did it become a part of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights that everyone on planet earth is entitled to -both- utter annonymity (and thus also utter un-accountability) -and- their own Internet domain nanmes? I guess that I wasn't paying attention that day. I didn't get the memo. I say again that the possession and use of an Internet domain name is -not- (and never has been) a "right" but rather a privilege... one that has been, traditionally, and for more than 35 years now, afforded only to those who were willing to contractually, and of their own free will, exchange a tiny bit of their anonymity for the distinct and clear privilege of registering a domain name. Now however, the brilliant bureaucrats of Brussels... who nobody, even in the EU voted for, and certainly no one in all of Asia and/or the entire Western Hemisphere... have unilaterally decided, in their infinite wisdom, to upend a system of accountability that was working reasonbly well for over 35 years just so that they could claim that they are "protecting" a miniscule population of shy transvestites from some imaginary modern day Stasi. No proof is or can be offered that this is either a sensible thing to do, or that it will protect these new, alleged, and entirely made up "rights" of anyone. Throwing out bits and pieces of longstanding and reasonable social contracts, based on nothing at all, leads to clearly ludicrous outcomes. You Europeans who are not yet beyond being educated may perhaps benefit from googling for "Michael Rotondo" and then start reading. This man's story illustrates, vividly, the final endpoint of the exact same "entitlement" insanity that has now apparently come to infect the entire global Internet. It must be stated also that nobody in their right mind would have ever even entertained the idea of killing off WHOIS, wholesale, except for the fact that these new GDPR edicts coming out of Brussels played right into the hands of the greedy oligarchs who these days run the Internet. The registries, the registrars, and their paid lackeys at ICANN had long wished to rid themselves of what they view as an unnecessary and unprofitable business expense, i.e. running the open WHOIS system. They were thus only too happy to bend over for Brussels and give up without even putting up a struggle at all, because they hoped to save themselves the expense of running WHOIS servers and/or, at the very least, making it more difficult for their competitors to identify and then poach their respective client bases (as actually happened, btw, in a notorious case several years ago involving Register.com). The arogant idiocy of Brussels, working in tandem with the greed of the registrars and registries has set back the causes of transparency and accountability on the Internet not merely by years but literally by decades. I, for one, sure do hope that there are in fact at least one or two shy transvestites out there somewhere who are celebrating this outcome, because for the rest of the planet it is tragedy of epic proportions, one which shall be recognized by all in the coming years.
And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and international cooperation.
I cannot help but wonder which pharmaceutical substances, in particular, are capable of inducing this level of utopian daydreams. I would very much like to get ahold of some of that, so that I too could, at least on the weekends, also inhabit a world where police forces the world over are so well endowed that cybercrime as we have known it simply ceases to exist and fades into humankind's collective memory. It would certainly be enjoyable to be able to take a break from -this- reality, where police forces the world over, often even by their own admissions, are increasingly out-matched, out-funded, and out-thought by the ever increasing plethora of newly invented forms of both online crime and online political subterfuge. Regards, rfg P.S. The essential idiocy of applying GDPR to the gobal WHOIS system can most simply and elegantly be demonstrated by pointing out the non-existance of answers to the following simple question: Other than greedy registrars and registries, cybercriminals, and a select handful of Russian state-backed disinformation operatives, who exactly either has benefited or will benefit from the application of GDPR to the global domain name WHOIS system? For all of the hoopla and shouting about privacy "rights", none of the advocates of this insanity have, to date, identified even a single real beneficiary of this introduction of unaccountability into the global Internet ecosystem, nor are they able to do so, because there are none... except of course for the aformentioned greedy registrars, registries, cybercriminals, and state-sponsored purveyors of disinformation. The application of GDPR to the global WHOIS is, was, and always has been a solution in search of a problem, and I challenge any of its supporters to convincingly demonstrate otherwise.
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:43:03AM -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
<much ranting> ... Sucks when all the free stuff you've been using to make money gets taken away, doesn't it? LOL, Sascha Luck
In message <9d061c1e-2d17-48b1-fc72-3c08026bbf2c@key-systems.net>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions.
I am compelled to point out, once again, the fundamentally demented nature of this new-fangled "entitlement" insanity that has been invented, literally out of whole cloth, and within just the past few years by various self-appointed "privacy advocates" in Europe and elsewhere.
When exactly did it become a part of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights that everyone on planet earth is entitled to -both- utter annonymity (and thus also utter un-accountability) -and- their own Internet domain nanmes? I guess that I wasn't paying attention that day. I didn't get the memo.
I say again that the possession and use of an Internet domain name is -not- (and never has been) a "right" but rather a privilege... one that has been, traditionally, and for more than 35 years now, afforded only to those who were willing to contractually, and of their own free will, exchange a tiny bit of their anonymity for the distinct and clear privilege of registering a domain name.
Now however, the brilliant bureaucrats of Brussels... who nobody, even in the EU voted for, and certainly no one in all of Asia and/or the entire Western Hemisphere... have unilaterally decided, in their infinite wisdom, to upend a system of accountability that was working reasonbly well for over 35 years just so that they could claim that they are "protecting" a miniscule population of shy transvestites from some imaginary modern day Stasi. No proof is or can be offered that this is either a sensible thing to do, or that it will protect these new, alleged, and entirely made up "rights" of anyone.
Throwing out bits and pieces of longstanding and reasonable social contracts, based on nothing at all, leads to clearly ludicrous outcomes. You Europeans who are not yet beyond being educated may perhaps benefit from googling for "Michael Rotondo" and then start reading. This man's story illustrates, vividly, the final endpoint of the exact same "entitlement" insanity that has now apparently come to infect the entire global Internet.
It must be stated also that nobody in their right mind would have ever even entertained the idea of killing off WHOIS, wholesale, except for the fact that these new GDPR edicts coming out of Brussels played right into the hands of the greedy oligarchs who these days run the Internet. The registries, the registrars, and their paid lackeys at ICANN had long wished to rid themselves of what they view as an unnecessary and unprofitable business expense, i.e. running the open WHOIS system. They were thus only too happy to bend over for Brussels and give up without even putting up a struggle at all, because they hoped to save themselves the expense of running WHOIS servers and/or, at the very least, making it more difficult for their competitors to identify and then poach their respective client bases (as actually happened, btw, in a notorious case several years ago involving Register.com).
The arogant idiocy of Brussels, working in tandem with the greed of the registrars and registries has set back the causes of transparency and accountability on the Internet not merely by years but literally by decades. I, for one, sure do hope that there are in fact at least one or two shy transvestites out there somewhere who are celebrating this outcome, because for the rest of the planet it is tragedy of epic proportions, one which shall be recognized by all in the coming years.
And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and international cooperation.
I cannot help but wonder which pharmaceutical substances, in particular, are capable of inducing this level of utopian daydreams. I would very much like to get ahold of some of that, so that I too could, at least on the weekends, also inhabit a world where police forces the world over are so well endowed that cybercrime as we have known it simply ceases to exist and fades into humankind's collective memory.
It would certainly be enjoyable to be able to take a break from -this- reality, where police forces the world over, often even by their own admissions, are increasingly out-matched, out-funded, and out-thought by the ever increasing plethora of newly invented forms of both online crime and online political subterfuge.
Regards, rfg
P.S. The essential idiocy of applying GDPR to the gobal WHOIS system can most simply and elegantly be demonstrated by pointing out the non-existance of answers to the following simple question:
Other than greedy registrars and registries, cybercriminals, and a select handful of Russian state-backed disinformation operatives, who exactly either has benefited or will benefit from the application of GDPR to the global domain name WHOIS system?
For all of the hoopla and shouting about privacy "rights", none of the advocates of this insanity have, to date, identified even a single real beneficiary of this introduction of unaccountability into the global Internet ecosystem, nor are they able to do so, because there are none... except of course for the aformentioned greedy registrars, registries, cybercriminals, and state-sponsored purveyors of disinformation.
The application of GDPR to the global WHOIS is, was, and always has been a solution in search of a problem, and I challenge any of its supporters to convincingly demonstrate otherwise.
In message <20180529190447.GH99066@cilantro.c4inet.net>, "Sascha Luck [ml]" <aawg@c4inet.net> wrote:
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:43:03AM -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
<much ranting> ...
Sucks when all the free stuff you've been using to make money gets taken away, doesn't it?
LOL,
It is said that he who laughs last laughs best. The joke is on you, Mr. Luck. I have never made a dime out of my volunteer work chasing spammers and cybercriminals off the Internet. I have no direct personal financial interest in the final dispositions of the various issues discussed here, unlike you Mr. Luck. Regards, rfg
Volker I don't think your choice of language is particularly helpful or constructive. In fact I think you're being intentionally inflammatory. Why don't you tone it down a little? There's no need to use words like: "vigilantes" or "rent-a-cops" unless you're simply trying to troll people or believe that the anti-abuse community shouldn't exist, which by extension would suggest that you want to enable online abuse. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 29/05/2018, 11:36, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of Volker Greimann" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote: Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one. Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners. "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions. Best, Volker Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote: > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade >> groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came >> into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom >> and gloom. > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. > And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public > WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the > Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of >> individual rights and the free Internet. > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order > to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world > over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy > of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view > it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest > of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation > of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by > GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing > them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses. > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across > the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with > toasts of champaign. > > > Regards, > rfg > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Apologies if I offended anyone. However I do believe law enforcement itself should be strictly a government function. Volker Am 29.05.2018 um 13:41 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
Volker
I don't think your choice of language is particularly helpful or constructive. In fact I think you're being intentionally inflammatory.
Why don't you tone it down a little?
There's no need to use words like: "vigilantes" or "rent-a-cops" unless you're simply trying to troll people or believe that the anti-abuse community shouldn't exist, which by extension would suggest that you want to enable online abuse.
Regards
Michele
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
On 29/05/2018, 11:36, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of Volker Greimann" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote: > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade >> groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came >> into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom >> and gloom. > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. > And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public > WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the > Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of >> individual rights and the free Internet. > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order > to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world > over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy > of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view > it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest > of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation > of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by > GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing > them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses. > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across > the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with > toasts of champaign. > > > Regards, > rfg >
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
But we are not enforcing any laws, I don’t believe in that other “code is law” urban myth either :) We as a community are protecting our respective users by blocking phish, spam, malware etc. And occasionally we send a heads up to other networks that are hosting or originating such traffic and have a published policy stating that they prohibit it. Here the request is that they enforce their own rules and policies. Where does the question of security practitioners arresting the individuals behind these malicious actions arise? And likewise since when does law enforcement control the mail / messaging services, dns and network infrastructure of various providers who have to block content for their users or take down content that violates their policy? ________________________________ From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 5:20:56 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Apologies if I offended anyone. However I do believe law enforcement itself should be strictly a government function. Volker Am 29.05.2018 um 13:41 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
Volker
I don't think your choice of language is particularly helpful or constructive. In fact I think you're being intentionally inflammatory.
Why don't you tone it down a little?
There's no need to use words like: "vigilantes" or "rent-a-cops" unless you're simply trying to troll people or believe that the anti-abuse community shouldn't exist, which by extension would suggest that you want to enable online abuse.
Regards
Michele
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
On 29/05/2018, 11:36, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of Volker Greimann" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote: > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade >> groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came >> into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom >> and gloom. > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. > And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public > WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the > Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of >> individual rights and the free Internet. > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order > to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world > over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy > of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view > it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest > of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation > of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by > GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing > them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses. > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across > the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with > toasts of champaign. > > > Regards, > rfg >
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Suresh, I get that and that aspect of the abuse community is providing a valuable service. A valuable service that also could be (and now must be) provided without access to whois data. Effectively, parts of your community have already been working without whois for years in ccTLDs where no or limited whois is provided by the registry. If you can fight abuse without full whois access under .uk, .io, .eu, .fr, etc etc etc, then you can also do it under .com, .net, .info, .whatever. Learn to do without violating the rights of millions of internet users, like many of your colleagues have. Best, Volker Am 29.05.2018 um 13:56 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian:
But we are not enforcing any laws, I don’t believe in that other “code is law” urban myth either :)
We as a community are protecting our respective users by blocking phish, spam, malware etc.
And occasionally we send a heads up to other networks that are hosting or originating such traffic and have a published policy stating that they prohibit it. Here the request is that they enforce their own rules and policies.
Where does the question of security practitioners arresting the individuals behind these malicious actions arise?
And likewise since when does law enforcement control the mail / messaging services, dns and network infrastructure of various providers who have to block content for their users or take down content that violates their policy?
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 29, 2018 5:20:56 PM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Apologies if I offended anyone.
However I do believe law enforcement itself should be strictly a government function.
Volker
Volker
I don't think your choice of language is particularly helpful or constructive. In fact I think you're being intentionally inflammatory.
Why don't you tone it down a little?
There's no need to use words like: "vigilantes" or "rent-a-cops" unless you're simply trying to troll
Am 29.05.2018 um 13:41 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight: people or believe that the anti-abuse community shouldn't exist, which by extension would suggest that you want to enable online abuse.
Regards
Michele
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
On 29/05/2018, 11:36, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of Volker Greimann" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being
lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote: > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and
>> groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came >> into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom >> and gloom. > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. > And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public > WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the > Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of >> individual rights and the free Internet. > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order > to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers
Park,Sleaty public will their funded trade the world
> over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy > of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view > it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest > of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation > of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by > GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing > them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses. > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across > the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with > toasts of champaign. > > > Regards, > rfg >
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
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--------------------------------------------
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Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
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This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
It seems to be a very popular meme right along with “we are not the internet police”. Or maybe that old saw about the internet interpreting censorship as damage and routing around it. Like several other popular memes and urban legends variants of this one have been around over the years so much so that there’s probably a faq out there on snopes for these. ________________________________ From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 5:11:20 PM To: Volker Greimann; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Volker I don't think your choice of language is particularly helpful or constructive. In fact I think you're being intentionally inflammatory. Why don't you tone it down a little? There's no need to use words like: "vigilantes" or "rent-a-cops" unless you're simply trying to troll people or believe that the anti-abuse community shouldn't exist, which by extension would suggest that you want to enable online abuse. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 29/05/2018, 11:36, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of Volker Greimann" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote: Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one. Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners. "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions. Best, Volker Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote: > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade >> groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came >> into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom >> and gloom. > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. > And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public > WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the > Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of >> individual rights and the free Internet. > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order > to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world > over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy > of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view > it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest > of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation > of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by > GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing > them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses. > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across > the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with > toasts of champaign. > > > Regards, > rfg > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
There is a balanced discussion to be had here but unfortunately it too quickly dissolves into acrimonious “shouting”. Volker's email expressing one side in a somewhat antagonistic fashion being a good example of the “shouting". As things stand at the moment, the interpretations of GDPR and subsequent actions of some large organisations make it likely that fraud and other types of malpractice, largely aimed at individual users, will increase. The stated position "that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners” is, at best, misleading. Assuming the “tool” being referred to is WHIOS, registrants of domains needed to provide information as part of their contract with the registrar. A contractual requirement. Perfectly OK pre GDPR, perfectly OK post GDPR. Publishing that data was perfectly legal pre-GDPR. It _may_ be legal post GDPR. Until this is tested in court, definitives are just so much posturing. And the argument is likely to be more nuanced anyway. If I want to register a domain and am told up front, in clear unambiguous language that the details I provide will appear in a publicly queryable database as part of the contract, job done. I may not like it. I may decide that I don’t want to enter into the contract. And that’s rather the point. Informed consent. Law enforcement doesn't provide anti-virus tools. Law enforcement doesn't offer secure transport services for cash and gold. Law enforcement doesn’t provide locks for front doors. Private companies provide those services. Your fancifully termed ""Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops” work to provide tools and services to enable people to protect themselves from bad actors online, not law enforcement. It is folly to remove tools used by these private companies to protect billions without at least some form of balanced debate. At ICANN, Puerto Rico, one member of a public interest board put it quite well when he stated that when it comes to protecting the interests of a few million (domain owners) versus protecting the interests of a few billion (internet users), he’d always come done on the side of the billions. I agree with the sentiment. Simon
On 29 May 2018, at 12:36, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:00:22PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Publishing that data was perfectly legal pre-GDPR. It _may_ be legal post GDPR. Until this is tested in court, definitives are just so much posturing. And the argument is likely to be more nuanced anyway. If I want to register a domain and am told up front, in clear unambiguous language that the details I provide will appear in a publicly queryable database as part of the contract, job done. I may not like it. I may decide that I don’t want to enter into the contract. And that’s rather the point. Informed consent.
I think you will find that combining access to a service with giving permission to have your data published is *explicitly* illegal under GDPR. The first case regarding this has already been filed: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases... So, one way or the other, there should be some legal clarity there soon. rgds, Sascha Luck
Simon
On 29 May 2018, at 12:36, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
On 29 May 2018, at 14:28, Sascha Luck [ml] <aawg@c4inet.net> wrote:
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:00:22PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Publishing that data was perfectly legal pre-GDPR. It _may_ be legal post GDPR. Until this is tested in court, definitives are just so much posturing. And the argument is likely to be more nuanced anyway. If I want to register a domain and am told up front, in clear unambiguous language that the details I provide will appear in a publicly queryable database as part of the contract, job done. I may not like it. I may decide that I don’t want to enter into the contract. And that’s rather the point. Informed consent.
I think you will find that combining access to a service with giving permission to have your data published is *explicitly* illegal under GDPR.
Would you be able to point to the section of the GDPR which states this? Admission: I have yet to make it to the end of the 88 pages of the act without falling asleep.
The first case regarding this has already been filed: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases... <https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases-under-gdpr-against-facebook-and-google-1.3508177> I appreciate a motion has been filed. However, I’d surprised if the case purely revolved around this single point.
It is positive that some of this stuff is going to be tested in court sooner rather than later. Having said that, it may be <sarcasm> a day or two </sarcasm> before we get to see a final judgement with no further appeals. All the best Simon
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:50:09PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Would you be able to point to the section of the GDPR which states this? Admission: I have yet to make it to the end of the 88 pages of the act without falling asleep.
It derives (also the tenor of NOYB's filing, aiui) from Article 7(4): "4. When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, inter alia, the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of personal data that is not necessary for the performance of that contract." http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/article-7-conditions-for-consent-GDPR.ht... cheers, Sascha Luck
The first case regarding this has already been filed: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases... <https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases-under-gdpr-against-facebook-and-google-1.3508177> I appreciate a motion has been filed. However, I’d surprised if the case purely revolved around this single point.
It is positive that some of this stuff is going to be tested in court sooner rather than later. Having said that, it may be <sarcasm> a day or two </sarcasm> before we get to see a final judgement with no further appeals.
All the best
Simon
Hi, One can argue that a "real abuse contact" related to a DNS domain is necessary for the contract's performance, no? The same is valid about the contract between RIPE/NCC and LIRs over assigned IP address space, right? Cheers, Carlos On Tue, 29 May 2018, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:50:09PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Would you be able to point to the section of the GDPR which states this? Admission: I have yet to make it to the end of the 88 pages of the act without falling asleep.
It derives (also the tenor of NOYB's filing, aiui) from Article 7(4):
"4. When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, inter alia, the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of personal data that is not necessary for the performance of that contract."
http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/article-7-conditions-for-consent-GDPR.ht...
cheers, Sascha Luck
The first case regarding this has already been filed: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases... <https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases-under-gdpr-against-facebook-and-google-1.3508177> I appreciate a motion has been filed. However, I???d surprised if the case purely revolved around this single point.
It is positive that some of this stuff is going to be tested in court sooner rather than later. Having said that, it may be <sarcasm> a day or two </sarcasm> before we get to see a final judgement with no further appeals.
All the best
Simon
Not really, to perform the domain registration agreement all I as registrar really need to know (simplified) is who owns the domain (who the partner for the registration contract is), where to send the bills and where to point it. Everything else is fluff that is not strictly necessary for the performance of the service. Volker Am 29.05.2018 um 16:38 schrieb Carlos Friaças:
Hi,
One can argue that a "real abuse contact" related to a DNS domain is necessary for the contract's performance, no?
The same is valid about the contract between RIPE/NCC and LIRs over assigned IP address space, right?
Cheers, Carlos
On Tue, 29 May 2018, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:50:09PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Would you be able to point to the section of the GDPR which states this? Admission: I have yet to make it to the end of the 88 pages of the act without falling asleep.
It derives (also the tenor of NOYB's filing, aiui) from Article 7(4):
"4. When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, inter alia, the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of personal data that is not necessary for the performance of that contract."
http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/article-7-conditions-for-consent-GDPR.ht...
cheers, Sascha Luck
The first case regarding this has already been filed: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases... <https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases-under-gdpr-against-facebook-and-google-1.3508177>
I appreciate a motion has been filed. However, I???d surprised if the case purely revolved around this single point.
It is positive that some of this stuff is going to be tested in court sooner rather than later. Having said that, it may be <sarcasm> a day or two </sarcasm> before we get to see a final judgement with no further appeals.
All the best
Simon
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
yes, which is why the registrar information on the domain whois are 100% accurate and all working, valid data. and no, the resources assigned by the RR, specially the legacy, is not at all the same thing. look how much of a battle and uphill struggle it was to even reach consensus on validating abuse records in terms of policy in this very wg. this, is part of the confusion. and I am not ranting about anything :) I am simply speaking my mind. Others that experience (or have experienced) the same type of things that I am speaking of, or will maybe in the future experience the same type of things, will recognise what I am saying and all of us know this: that we have to do something or we will all be done for. Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:38:08 +0100 (WEST) Carlos Friaças <cfriacas@fccn.pt> wrote:
Hi,
One can argue that a "real abuse contact" related to a DNS domain is necessary for the contract's performance, no?
The same is valid about the contract between RIPE/NCC and LIRs over assigned IP address space, right?
Cheers, Carlos
On Tue, 29 May 2018, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:50:09PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Would you be able to point to the section of the GDPR which states this? Admission: I have yet to make it to the end of the 88 pages of the act without falling asleep.
It derives (also the tenor of NOYB's filing, aiui) from Article 7(4):
"4. When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, inter alia, the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of personal data that is not necessary for the performance of that contract."
http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/article-7-conditions-for-consent-GDPR.ht...
cheers, Sascha Luck
The first case regarding this has already been filed: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases... <https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases-under-gdpr-against-facebook-and-google-1.3508177> I appreciate a motion has been filed. However, I???d surprised if the case purely revolved around this single point.
It is positive that some of this stuff is going to be tested in court sooner rather than later. Having said that, it may be <sarcasm> a day or two </sarcasm> before we get to see a final judgement with no further appeals.
All the best
Simon
Hi Carlos, On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 03:38:08PM +0100, Carlos Friaas wrote:
One can argue that a "real abuse contact" related to a DNS domain is necessary for the contract's performance, no? The same is valid about the contract between RIPE/NCC and LIRs over assigned IP address space, right?
You can argue that - it's the meat of the noyb ./. FB and Google cases, aiui. You can also argue that publishing this data without any access control is *not* necessary to the operation of the registry and therefore access to services can't be made contingent on consent to this. I predict there will be a court case over this very soon. cheers, Sascha Luck
Cheers, Carlos
On Tue, 29 May 2018, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:50:09PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Would you be able to point to the section of the GDPR which states this? Admission: I have yet to make it to the end of the 88 pages of the act without falling asleep.
It derives (also the tenor of NOYB's filing, aiui) from Article 7(4):
"4. When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, inter alia, the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of personal data that is not necessary for the performance of that contract."
http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/article-7-conditions-for-consent-GDPR.ht...
cheers, Sascha Luck
The first case regarding this has already been filed: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases... <https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases-under-gdpr-against-facebook-and-google-1.3508177> I appreciate a motion has been filed. However, I???d surprised if the case purely revolved around this single point.
It is positive that some of this stuff is going to be tested in court sooner rather than later. Having said that, it may be <sarcasm> a day or two </sarcasm> before we get to see a final judgement with no further appeals.
All the best
Simon
Sascha, this is a very good point and the RR is probably very keen on understanding the issues related to your point, so let us chat about it please. If there is a test case about this, it could be taken down to AS level, and then in which case, the 'complainant' may have other issues as well. Anyway, as we now all, mostly, agree and understand: No abuse is possible without an IP number. IP numbers are public resources that belong to society and currently these resources are not sold, licensed or supplied but 'assigned' I would argue that; As far as these public resources are concerned, the public has a right to know to whom public resources has been assigned. The assignee has a right to data privacy - but when using a public resource has can have no expectation of privacy as it is a public resource. As the public resources are also used to inter operate with other public resources, the public therefore has a stronger right to the data than the owner of the data and in order to be assigned public resources the data owner would have to assign the ownership of the public resource data to the RR. Your point though is very valid and if it was not for the fact that public resources are used for inter operation and without this inter operation there would be no network and no data would be able to be transmitted in itself, the rights to the public data is stronger on the side of the public. (public = society) All rights, including privacy, has to be in balance with the responsibility of those same rights and the rights of others, including society. Which is why the GDPR has an exception for law enforcement, courts, etc. At worst an exception may also be required for RR or for public resources at best it will be found that the data in the case of RR is public data to begin with and the public is the owner thereof. Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 16:54:57 +0100 "Sascha Luck [ml]" <aawg@c4inet.net> wrote:
Hi Carlos,
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 03:38:08PM +0100, Carlos Friaas wrote:
One can argue that a "real abuse contact" related to a DNS domain is necessary for the contract's performance, no? The same is valid about the contract between RIPE/NCC and LIRs over assigned IP address space, right?
You can argue that - it's the meat of the noyb ./. FB and Google cases, aiui. You can also argue that publishing this data without any access control is *not* necessary to the operation of the registry and therefore access to services can't be made contingent on consent to this. I predict there will be a court case over this very soon.
cheers, Sascha Luck
Cheers, Carlos
On Tue, 29 May 2018, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:50:09PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Would you be able to point to the section of the GDPR which states this? Admission: I have yet to make it to the end of the 88 pages of the act without falling asleep.
It derives (also the tenor of NOYB's filing, aiui) from Article 7(4):
"4. When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, inter alia, the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of personal data that is not necessary for the performance of that contract."
http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/article-7-conditions-for-consent-GDPR.ht...
cheers, Sascha Luck
The first case regarding this has already been filed: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases... <https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-cases-under-gdpr-against-facebook-and-google-1.3508177> I appreciate a motion has been filed. However, I???d surprised if the case purely revolved around this single point.
It is positive that some of this stuff is going to be tested in court sooner rather than later. Having said that, it may be <sarcasm> a day or two </sarcasm> before we get to see a final judgement with no further appeals.
All the best
Simon
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 02:00:22PM +0200, Simon Forster wrote:
Law enforcement doesn't provide anti-virus tools. Law enforcement doesn't offer secure transport services for cash and gold. Law enforcement doesn’t provide locks for front doors. Private companies provide those services. Your fancifully termed ""Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops” work to provide tools and services to enable people to protect themselves from bad actors online, not law enforcement. It is folly to remove tools used by these private companies to protect billions without at least some form of balanced debate.
Is it also a folly to deny private companies, "private detectives", vigilantes, and any interested randomers access to the databases LEOs hold on their citizens? Some of those citizens are, inevitably, criminals. It's easy, if you want my data, state your case and, if you intend to make money from them, PAY ME. rgds, Sascha Luck
Simon
On 29 May 2018, at 12:36, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
As things stand at the moment, the interpretations of GDPR and subsequent actions of some large organisations make it likely that fraud and other types of malpractice, largely aimed at individual users, will increase. On the other hand, the amount of spam and abuse directed at new registrant will be greatly reduced. Balance will be the result. The stated position "that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners” is, at best, misleading. Assuming the “tool” being referred to is WHIOS, registrants of domains needed to provide information as part of their contract with the registrar. A contractual requirement. Perfectly OK pre GDPR, perfectly OK post GDPR. Sadly untrue, since consent to processing of data that is not strictly necessary for the performance of the contract post GDPR must be freely given. If the service is withheld unless consent is provided, that consent is invalid. Even before GDPR, the consent for whois was iffy as best. Publishing that data was perfectly legal pre-GDPR. It _may_ be legal post GDPR. Until this is tested in court, definitives are just so much posturing. And the argument is likely to be more nuanced anyway. If I want to register a domain and am told up front, in clear unambiguous language that the details I provide will appear in a publicly queryable database as part of the contract, job done. I may not like it. I may decide that I don’t want to enter into the contract. And that’s rather the point. Informed consent. Actually, it isn't. Forced consent is never valid. Law enforcement doesn't provide anti-virus tools. Law enforcement doesn't offer secure transport services for cash and gold. Law enforcement doesn’t provide locks for front doors. Private companies provide those services. Your fancifully termed ""Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops” work to provide tools and services to enable people to protect themselves from bad actors online, not law enforcement. It is folly to remove tools used by these private companies to protect billions without at least some form of balanced debate. Legal tools can be used, illegal toold cannot. But you raise a valid
Hi Simon, that is a common misconception, but sadly untrue. point regarding legitimate service providers providing valuable services. However, they must do so with tools that are legal.
At ICANN, Puerto Rico, one member of a public interest board put it quite well when he stated that when it comes to protecting the interests of a few million (domain owners) versus protecting the interests of a few billion (internet users), he’d always come done on the side of the billions. I agree with the sentiment. The opposite view is that "It's better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted", or in this case I'd rather see one spam mail a day in my inbox more than forfeit the privacy of all registrants. The needs of the many do not give the right to violate the rights of the few.
And even that is a false equivalent, since all this work can continue to be provided without the use of whois. Whois is but one tool in an arsenal of many. Use the others, like you probably already do with registrations in ccTLDs without full public whois access. Volker
Simon
On 29 May 2018, at 12:36, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with this one.
Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners.
"Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement.
Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public will lead to better registration data for those with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of millions.
Best,
Volker
Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote:
Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold.
How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred.
The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish.
The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses.
Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign.
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Volker Greimann wrote:
Hi Simon,
that is a common misconception, but sadly untrue.
As things stand at the moment, the interpretations of GDPR and subsequent actions of some large organisations make it likely that fraud and other types of malpractice, largely aimed at individual users, will increase. On the other hand, the amount of spam and abuse directed at new registrant will be greatly reduced. Balance will be the result. The stated position "that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners” is, at best, misleading. Assuming the “tool” being referred to is WHIOS, registrants of domains needed to provide information as part of their contract with the registrar. A contractual requirement. Perfectly OK pre GDPR, perfectly OK post GDPR. Sadly untrue, since consent to processing of data that is not strictly necessary for the performance of the contract post GDPR must be freely given. If the service is withheld unless consent is provided, that consent is invalid. Even before GDPR, the consent for whois was iffy as best.
Don't you have real estate registration in your country that is publicly accessible? If so, do you think it should now be banned under GDPR (if in EU)? I see your point, but it is not *that* clear. Best regards -- CERTSI (CERT de Seguridad e Industria) - Spanish Security and Industry Incident Response Team https://www.certsi.es/ PGP Keys: https://www.certsi.es/en/what-is-certsi/pgp-public-keys ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ CERTSI (CERT de Seguridad e Industria) Spanish Security and Industry Incident Response Team operates under the auspices of the Ministry of Energy, Tourism and Digital Agenda through the State Secretariat for Information Society and Digital Agenda, and the Ministry of Interior through the Security State Secretariat of the Spanish government as a national CERT. Our main role is detection, coordination and response of security incidents that take place on Spanish CI (Critical Infrastructure), Research and Academic Network (RedIRIS), enterprises and/or citizens. Also, we act as Spanish national CERT in the role of coordination with other security teams. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: This message, including any attachments, may contain confidential information, within the framework of the corporate Security Management System. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete this message without forwarding or retaining a copy, since any unauthorized use is strictly prohibited by law. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is another argument often raised, yet it is missing the point of the legality of these registers. Yes, there are certain public or non-public registers like the land register (public) or the car registration register (non-public), but each of these are mandated by law. If you buy land, there is a legal requirement to get yourself registered. This legal basis is sufficient grounds for data processing under the GDPR under Art 6 I c) ("processing is necessary for compliance with a legal obligation to which the controller is subject"). But that is exactly the point: No such law exists for IP adresses or whois, hence the logic of having these registeres cannot be transferred to these services. Now, some countries have such laws and ccTLD registries will continue to legally publish whois details for their TLD registrations. But most do not, and if they do, these laws are specifically tailored to their own TLD. Volker Am 29.05.2018 um 16:42 schrieb Ángel González Berdasco:
Volker Greimann wrote:
Hi Simon,
that is a common misconception, but sadly untrue.
As things stand at the moment, the interpretations of GDPR and subsequent actions of some large organisations make it likely that fraud and other types of malpractice, largely aimed at individual users, will increase. On the other hand, the amount of spam and abuse directed at new registrant will be greatly reduced. Balance will be the result. The stated position "that tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners” is, at best, misleading. Assuming the “tool” being referred to is WHIOS, registrants of domains needed to provide information as part of their contract with the registrar. A contractual requirement. Perfectly OK pre GDPR, perfectly OK post GDPR. Sadly untrue, since consent to processing of data that is not strictly necessary for the performance of the contract post GDPR must be freely given. If the service is withheld unless consent is provided, that consent is invalid. Even before GDPR, the consent for whois was iffy as best. Don't you have real estate registration in your country that is publicly accessible? If so, do you think it should now be banned under GDPR (if in EU)?
I see your point, but it is not *that* clear.
Best regards
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
In message <f4fd7e89-f816-a3b4-471a-b405632bf2f6@key-systems.net>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
If you buy land, there is a legal requirement to get yourself registered. This legal basis is sufficient grounds for data processing under the GDPR under Art 6 I c) ("processing is necessary for compliance with a legal obligation to which the controller is subject").
I am very glad that you have explicitly clarified this exception to the GDPR rules, as it allows me to ask a question which has, quite frankly, befuddled me ever since this whole GDPR versus WHOIS lunacy began. As I understand it, the binding contractual obligations which all individual domain name registrants have committed to include the requirment to provide accurate WHOIS data, with the understanding that this information will be published. Also and similarly, as I understand it, domain name registrars and registries (with the exception of the ccTLDs) have all contractually committed themselves (to ICANN) to actually publish this data. Could someone please explain to me then how these pre-existing contractual obligations somehow fall outside of the exception stated in GDPR Art 6 I c? In what sense are these pre-existing contractual obligations not "legal obligations", as defined, presumably, within the GDPR framework? Regards, rfg
Two parties cannot agree in a contract to take away the privacy right of a third. Art 6 I c) only refers to obligations with regulatory power, not private agreements. So if a state my company is subject to makes a valid law that requiresa certain type of processing, that is binding. If I am bound by a contract with a contract, that is not a valid reason for processing in accordance with Art 6 I c). It is really easy, actually... Volker Am 29.05.2018 um 22:00 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
In message <f4fd7e89-f816-a3b4-471a-b405632bf2f6@key-systems.net>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
If you buy land, there is a legal requirement to get yourself registered. This legal basis is sufficient grounds for data processing under the GDPR under Art 6 I c) ("processing is necessary for compliance with a legal obligation to which the controller is subject"). I am very glad that you have explicitly clarified this exception to the GDPR rules, as it allows me to ask a question which has, quite frankly, befuddled me ever since this whole GDPR versus WHOIS lunacy began.
As I understand it, the binding contractual obligations which all individual domain name registrants have committed to include the requirment to provide accurate WHOIS data, with the understanding that this information will be published.
Also and similarly, as I understand it, domain name registrars and registries (with the exception of the ccTLDs) have all contractually committed themselves (to ICANN) to actually publish this data.
Could someone please explain to me then how these pre-existing contractual obligations somehow fall outside of the exception stated in GDPR Art 6 I c?
In what sense are these pre-existing contractual obligations not "legal obligations", as defined, presumably, within the GDPR framework?
Regards, rfg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Il 29 maggio 2018 alle 22.00 "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg@tristatelogic.com> ha scritto: As I understand it, the binding contractual obligations which all individual domain name registrants have committed to include the requirment to provide accurate WHOIS data, with the understanding that this information will be published.
It is illegal to require people in a contract to agree to supply or publish their data if they want to receive a service, unless you can prove that it would not be in any way practically possible to supply the service without receiving and/or publishing those data (and I stress: practically, not by policy). In this case, you can argue that it is necessary for the users to supply their information, for example to be able to pay and get an invoice, but publishing it is another matter: there is really no argument to support the idea that the DNS cannot technically work without Whois. So, at this point in time, any contractual clause by anyone (ICANN, registry, registrar...) requiring a EU citizen to agree to publish data in Whois is (very likely to be) void in Europe.
Also and similarly, as I understand it, domain name registrars and registries (with the exception of the ccTLDs) have all contractually committed themselves (to ICANN) to actually publish this data.
And similarly, those provisions are now void in Europe.
Could someone please explain to me then how these pre-existing contractual obligations somehow fall outside of the exception stated in GDPR Art 6 I c?
In what sense are these pre-existing contractual obligations not "legal obligations", as defined, presumably, within the GDPR framework?
Because a "legal obligation" can only be imposed by a law-making body, i.e. the European or national parliament. Contracts are not laws, and private parties cannot make, change, ignore, grant exemptions from, or enforce laws. Whenever you have a public registry in Europe, you have a national or European law that creates it, and thus bypasses the privacy laws. So what you should actually do is to lobby the European Parliament to pass a regulation that institutes a public registry of domain name owners - then it would work. Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
participants (12)
-
Brian Nisbet -
Carlos Friaças -
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight -
ox -
Ronald F. Guilmette -
Sascha Luck [ml] -
Simon Forster -
Suresh Ramasubramanian -
Vittorio Bertola -
Volker Greimann -
Ángel González Berdasco