Re: [anti-abuse-wg] AS24940 Hetzner -- non-role contact wanted
Colleagues, This is an open mailing list for the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group where a variety of matters, including policy, are discussed. It is not, nor hopefully will it ever be, a closed list with vetting etc. There are lists like that out there, they serve a very useful purpose, but this list is not them. Like all RIPE mailing lists it is as open as possible and will remain so. The Code of Conduct is not there to be used as a stick. It is there to welcome, to set certain norms of behaviour and, hopefully, to support useful discussion across RIPE mailing lists and meetings. To be very clear, we do not believe anyone in this conversation has been misleading or impersonating anyone. We believe there are differences of opinion, possibly even very deep ones, but, barring the uncivil modes of discourse, nothing to trouble the Code of Conduct. We would ask both of you, and all members of this list, to treat each other with civility, to discuss the technical or policy merits of any discussion and to assume good intent from others in all things. What any member of the list does in direct mail between the themselves is up to them, of course. However we would hope for a world in which there is as much civility as possible. All of the Co-Chairs serve at the pleasure of the Working Group. If anyone here feels that one or more of us are not chairing it in an appropriate fashion then the procedure for the removal of a Co-Chair is here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/anti-abuse/anti-abuse-wg-chair-sele... We consider both Andre & Ronald to be members of this list and, barring future events, have no intention of removing either of you. We consider this matter to be closed at this point and we hope the list can return to the ongoing discussions. In a civil manner. If anyone wishes to discuss this with the WG Chairs directly, please email aa-wg-chair@ripe.net Thanks, Alireza, Brian & Tobias Co-Chairs, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
-----Original Message----- From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of ac Sent: Friday 26 April 2019 05:51 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] AS24940 Hetzner -- non-role contact wanted
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 17:41:20 -0700 "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg@tristatelogic.com> wrote: <snip senseless rant around here>
Mr. Chairman, I ask you to summarily eject the member in question from the mailing list with clear instructions not to return and not to try to do so via the ruse of yet additional sock puppet fradulent identities. I ask you to do so in accordance with your clear authority and responsibility under the RIPE Code of Conduct, which is, I think, not at all ambiguous on this point. You cannot, I think, merely stand by and allow arbitrary actors with hidden agendas and fradulent identities to infiltrate and repeatedly disrupt and thwart this Working Group, or this mailing list, whether via repeated off-topic rantings or via other artificial means. To do so would be a serious abrogation of your responsibilities as Chair of this WG, and one which I and others might reasonably feel duty bound to bring to the attention of other and higher RIPE authorities.
I await the Chair's response and the Chair's appropriate action.
So, if you do not get your way, me being ejected, then you are threatening the Chair?
All in the same post.
You are indeed an arrogant and ignorant bully.
And, you are the disruption. You have carefully crafted an identity over a decade or more, yet, even after looking carefully, I cannot see that you are pushing packets in RIPE. I also cannot see you anywhere among my own colleagues and I therefore do not understand what you are doing in this WG, except to cause disruption, division and spread FUD.
Your behavior even in this thread:
1. You post on a website (links included in your original post) clearly states that Hetzner cannot investigate without you agreeing that they send the email headers to the service provider
You claim that this idea is the worst idea since "This is probably the best European idea since the one about invading Russia in Winter."
2. When I point out that you are technically incorrect or ignorant - as the Hetzner response is completely true, ethical and correct and YOU are wrong
You start attacking me, with us now here where you are threatening that if I am not ejected from this WG you " I and others might reasonably feel duty bound to bring to the attention of other and higher RIPE authorities."
Your disruptive, arrogant and bully behavior is cause for you to be ejected from this WG
Andre
In message <DB7PR06MB56438B99D23B236E688EA3C4943E0@DB7PR06MB5643.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
This is an open mailing list for the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group where a variety of matters, including policy, are discussed.
It is not, nor hopefully will it ever be, a closed list with vetting etc.
Brian's open-mindedness is heartwarnming, however if Scott Richter were to one day wander in here, using a mysterious alias and posting from a domain that has nothing that could be seriously called a web site, then my hope would be that someone, at least, would cry foul. And if no one else did, than I most certainly would. I don't like sock puppets, whether they be Russians trying to influence elections, covertly, or stealthy South African providers of bulk email services. If there are "ringers" being sent in, here or elsewhere, with the goal of influencing discussions without disclosing their actual interests, then that's quite clearly a violation of the RIPE Code of Conduct, as well as an affront to everyone here. Since Brian is apparently perfectly OK with having exactly such sock puppets around, it now falls to me to make plain the actual business interests of our resident troll, Mr. Andre. It is only a very short set of steps, starting from the domain main.me, and its WHOIS history, as provided by the whoxy.com web site, to find out, despite his/her/its various efforts to prevent it, that our Mr. Andre is directly and irrefutably associated with (and presumably here representing) the following commercial enterprise. This commercial enterprise, as you can all see, offers bulk emailing services: https://nkosi.co.za/ It's not at all clear from the minimalist description of the services offered which IP addresses or domain names are being used for these bulk emailing services. But given that Mr. Andre chastized me, just recently, for my purported failure to "move packets in the RIPE region" I think that it is a safe bet that he is doing so himself, and perhaps even from the network of Hetzner, a network which he has held himself up to be an authority on. (How did he come to believe that he knew so much about Hetzner unless he was either a Hetzner customer or a Hetzner supplier?) I think that the members should take these facts into consideration when evaluating the opinions of our Mr. Andre. I am compelled to point out also Mr. Andre's own published written opinions on the proper definition of spam. Mr. Andre's preferred definition appears to allow for "one time" invitations to be blasted to everyone in the universe. Nonetheless, in Mr. Andre's considered opinion, "Email Spam is not the same as Spam Abuse" and a "... one time request should not be considered spam abuse.": https://ascams.com/email-marketing/ Leaving aside Mr. Andre's opinions regarding the proper definition of the term "spam", I am compelled also to point out that this mailing list is by no means the first one that he has trolled and disrupted. In April of 2016, he also injected himself into the Linux Autralia "linuix-aus" mailing list, where he proceeded to inform the participants that he had invented the "Final Ultimate Solution to the Spam Problem" (FUSSP - see https://www.dmuth.org/fussp/) and that he would be more than happy to share it with Linux Australia if they would only allow him to plug his magical and wonderous black box spam filter into Linux Autralia's email infrastructure: http://lists.linux.org.au/pipermail/linux-aus/2016-April/thread.html For some reason, the various fans of open source software on that mailing list were less than enthused about the proposed closed-source "ultimate solution" their spam problems, and thus, Mr. Andre and his proposal and his mysterious black box "solution" were quite appropriately derided, laughed at, and encouraged to go elsewhere. (Mr. Andre, of course asserted that anyone and everyone who didn't immediately buy into his miraculous new anti-spam invention were quite certainly "bullies".) After that, Mr. Andre either was forcably ejected from that mailing list or else he himself elected to quitely slink off, never to be heard from again.... ... until some months later when he resurfaced, in October 2016, of all places, on the mailing lists of the Philladelphia Lunix User's Group (PLUG) where he took it upon himself to correct the ill-informed views of every member there who thought that it might be time to start blacklisting some entire highly spam-ridden TLDs. It's not really clear what personal interest our Mr. Andre might have, or might have had, back in 2016, in preserving the unfettered ability to send email from such sterling TLD's as .XYZ, but he obviously had a burning interest in this one issue, and spent considerable time explaining to numerous other mailing list participants, ad nauseum, exactly why and how they were all stupid and "bullies" if they did not elect to agree with his views on this issue: http://lists.netisland.net/archives/plug/plug-2016-10/maillist.html Lastly as some of you may have noticed, our Mr. Andre, unlike EVERY other participant here on this mailing list, has quite obviously been reluctant to share with any of us his surname. I don't even need to speculate about why that might be and/or who or what Mr. Andre may be hiding from. I'll just leave that as an exercise for the reader. Use your imagination. The bottom line is that Mr. Andre is here under false pretenses, in violation of the RIPE Code of Conduct, and is directly associated with a commercial enterprise that provides bulk email services. He's published his views about the proper definition of spam on a web site that he appears to own and operate himself, so nobody needs to have any doubts about what those views are. Even if we generously overlook all of that, Mr. Andre's past propensity for dropping in and disrupting mailing lists (primarily by his insistance on endlessly debating a number of perfectly ridiculous notions) is every bit as evident as it is also a matter of public historical record. The (Co-)Chairman and the rest of you can continue to feed this troll and provide him with additional entertainment. I myself will decline to do so regardles of what further falsehoods or perfectly idiotic assertions he/she/it may make here. Regards, rfg
The email below is in direct and flagrant disregard of what you wrote yourself as you are attempting to expose my identity and posting about me personally, in this WG. You have crossed a line and that after the chairs replied to this thread. You, yourself, wrote this:
I have just been reviewing the RIPE Code of Conduct for mailing lists, and specifically these sections:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/ripe-mailing-list-ripe-forum-code-of-c...
RIPE community members should not spam mailing lists, post others' personal information, register multiple accounts to avoid moderation or mislead participants, impersonate others, or make threats. Overt marketing or promotional activities are discouraged.
Chairs are responsible for facilitating and moderating the RIPE community's discussions. At times they may direct an individual to cease a certain type of behaviour. Chairs have the authority to moderate or ban disruptive community members if they decide this is necessary.
I have read your "expose" of myself and; a simple https://bing.com search on my email address displays my surname in the first page results.... Have you tried using other search engines? Then, I have been posting to mailing lists since around 1987... If your long research into my over 30 years of posts results in only the piddly few objections you have about what I have said, for example that it is possible to not receive spam, , I have said the very same thing in this WG as well and in fact as little as a week or two ago in reply to one of your email spam complaints... As you said (and everyone in this group already knows) I am not so tolerant if ignorance. More so if the ignorant person is also a bully, like for example yourself. I am also still a member of many mailings lists including Philladelphia "Lunix" User's Group (PLUG) and yes, I did correct ignorant postings that EU TLD's must just be blanket blocked (for example .me) - as that is ignorant Ignorant people posting to blanket drop all incoming email from .ru or .me or other TLD's is just plain stupid or ignorant as this will not prevent or stop spam or abuse. And, yes, this includes blanket blocking .xyz or any other TLD. The fact that you are commenting about that and posting this here in this group as some sort of derogatory comment about myself, is indicative of your desperation to paint me as some sort of villain. yet, I am only an honest human being and I believe in total honesty with myself. If you lie to yourself, you are lost and my truth is exactly that: my truth. You lie to yourself, if you were honest, you would know that this is the truth: You are a bully. and it seems you are not a nice or decent human being. Then, hosting business, yes, I am involved in many hosting businesses, yes, I provide bulk email services for Newsletters, Notifications, Invoices, Statements and many other reasons. So what? But, you probably already researched my 'known' IP numbers and resources and you know already that I do not transmit any spam. So, at the end of your exposure of my personal information, in this WG What is your point? That people who provide routing, hosting services or Internet services may not be on mailing lists? I must be honest, I thought some of your research etc was valuable in the past and you have changed my opinion as your research is biased and useless as it is empty and devoid of value. You are a tin can and an empty tin can at that. Have you noticed that I have not said a single thing about your identity? (and, truth be told, you have a skeleton or two...) Andre
plonk
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 22:41:50 -0700 Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
plonk
so, we are now degraded to single slang derogatory terms... as you are reply to me and the list, I am assuming that I am the 'plonker' well, at least it is original... I have been called many things, but never had a plonk, thank you for that :) btw - I do not care to be popular, or liked... or what people think of me, I do not have any current 'social media' and frankly, maybe I am a bit of a plonk, truth be told I am probably a schmuck, so this is fair comment... You actually telling me what you think of me though, says a lot more about you, than it does about me... Andre
participants (4)
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ac -
Brian Nisbet -
Randy Bush -
Ronald F. Guilmette