On Tue, 29 May 2018 16:23:13 +0200 Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
OK, let'S ban IP numbers then. Clearly they are evil! ;-)
one has to look how certain multinationals are using IP numbers in what they see as a war. spammers also do this, they send legit email from the same IP number as they pump & dump. but, a small ISP is easy to block if that ISP ignores abuse complaints. Google is impossible to block - yet they also ignore abuse complaints. Outlook.com is impossible to block - yet they are completely oblivious to abuse complaints. see?
Am 29.05.2018 um 16:12 schrieb ox:
Jordi,
This is a technical statement, it is not a pov (point of view) - it is a simple and salient fact:
No abuse on the Internet is possible without an IP number.
In your example:
the mail server = the IP number.
so the abuse originates from the mail server IP number.
the DNS = IP number
DNS is that service that translates names into numbers, so that you are able to deliver your spam.
a domain by itself can do nothing.
hth
Andre
On Tue, 29 May 2018 16:03:41 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Well, we disagree in the definition of abuse maybe?
You can find many definitions of this:
"Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages, which are generally undesired"
So, spam is abuse, and I don't need to know IPs to send spam. The mail server will use DNS to find them.
Regards, Jordi
-----Mensaje original----- De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de ox <andre@ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:57 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
I am so happy that you are asking this question :)
This is what causes much confusion with people, including experienced netadmins, sysadmins and many very technically advanced people. You can use any email address as an example: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Please think about it for a second:
How would you go about sending spam to this email address without using an IP number?
It is not possible for Internet abuse to exist - without an IP number. So, for this wg : EVERYTHING that is abuse is powered by IP numbers. Andre
On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:51:38 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote: > How come you can't send spam without the IP? > > I can look for new registered domains, use whois for > catching the emails that appear there, and then spam them. > > This is something that I experience everytime I register a > new domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created > email contacts. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en > nombre de ox <andre@ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39 > Para: <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email > abuse > > > Please correct me if you think I am wrong: > > 1. > You cannot send spam without an IP number. > > 2. > You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. > > > I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech > or abuse email address and WORKING registrar contact > information. > > I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources > and get accurate and/or working resource contact > information. > > > So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg > <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote: > > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and > > sending spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see > > what IPs are related to it for other kinds of abuses. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en > > nombre de ox <andre@ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 > > Para: <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> > > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on > > email abuse > > > > > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. > > > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain > > name. > > > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name > > can do nothing. > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is > > absolutely correct. > > The trouble is that network operators are > > resistant to accept the responsibility (costs, > > issues, trouble) of managing abuse > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a > > functional registrar abuse email address. > > > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources > > assigned by this RR > > Andre > > > > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 > > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg > > <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote: > > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and > > > bad things. Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, > > > when you register a new domain and you > > > associate a visible email to it, in a matter of > > > hours, you get spam. Pro: If it is a real email > > > with humans behind, it facilitates the > > > resolution of abuse cases. The balance is > > > always difficult ... Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > De: anti-abuse-wg > > > <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de > > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> > > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: > > > Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com>, > > > "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" > > > <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: > > > [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on > > > email abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that > > > helps identify bad actors by means of violating > > > privacy rights of millions. There are other > > > tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting > > > infrastructures used, etc. all of which will > > > continue to be available for the uses you refer > > > to. > > > > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement > > > is better equipped to deal with such issues > > > earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have > > > been afforded the luxury of being able to > > > underfund such efforts as others were doing > > > their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to > > > better law enforcement and international > > > cooperation. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh > > > Ramasubramanian: > > > > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short > > > sighted > > > > > > > > > > > > All security practitioners protect our > > > respective services and networks against a wide > > > variety of threats including malware and phish > > > campaigns. > > > > > > > > > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law > > > enforcement and that only after an extensive > > > dossier is built internally to show that the > > > perps in question justify a - frequently cross > > > border - law enforcement action. > > > > > > > > > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in > > > hand and I wish more people realised that, and > > > maybe also realised the resource and > > > administrative lconstraints and limits law > > > enforcement is saddled with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg > > > <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of > > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: > > > anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: > > > [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR > > > - positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and > > > fearmongering is high with this one. > > > > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to > > > GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and > > > take action against due to the loss of one tool > > > amongst many, but ultimately that tool was > > > illegal to begin with as it violated the rights > > > to privacy of millions of domain owners. > > > > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or > > > rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult > > > time to obtain such data as they will finally > > > have to do so by legal means, but then they are > > > in an untenable position anyway, taking upon > > > themselves functions that should be fulfilled > > > by actual law enforcement. > > > > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no > > > longer being public will lead to better > > > registration data for those with a right to > > > access it. Those with no such rights will have > > > to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs > > > that does not violate the rights of millions. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. > > > Guilmette: > > > > ox <andre@ox.co.za> wrote: > > > > > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the > > > >> multinationals and their funded trade groups > > > >> (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the > > > >> rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, > > > >> Internet in the EU would collapse and there > > > >> would be digital doom and gloom. > > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual > > > > volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even > > > > -I- have told everyone I know that the > > > > disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be > > > > an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime > > > > on the Internet before, it will be increased, > > > > going forward, by tenfold. > > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - > > > >> as we can all clearly see) > > > > Be patient. The change has only just > > > > occurred. > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global > > > >> leader in the reclamation of individual > > > >> rights and the free Internet. > > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually > > > > has to turn on Fox News in order to be > > > > treated to this level of rubbish. > > > > > > > > The only thing that has happened is that > > > > private researchers the world over have been > > > > effectively blinded due to the supreme > > > > arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans > > > > who, in their religious fervor, have come to > > > > view it as their holy obligation to foist > > > > their demented notions onto the rest of the > > > > world, whether any of the rest of us like it > > > > or not. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of > > > > state-sponsored intrigue and violation of > > > > human rights are and shall remain totally > > > > unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they > > > > will be the first ones to obtain special > > > > exemptions allowing them to continue to see > > > > WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are > > > > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, > > > > as it further entrenches their special status > > > > at the expense of the great unwashes masses. > > > > > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and > > > > democracy, but all across the globe both > > > > criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated > > > > it with toasts of champaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > rfg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which > > may be privileged or confidential. 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