Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
2. There is an abuse function for well … abuse
Where?
the (not working) abuse finder tool ? the new "forms" at ripe ?
And here is where your logic breaks very badly
Not SOO badly. If RIPE NCC finally will force the LIRs to have correct abuse contacts, it means that the LIR has to take care (well he inserted the objects himself or delegated access to them to his customer), its not interesting, if the customer provides correct details at all. The LIR has to provide them. And if he doesnt, well, punish him ... Kind regards, Frank
While all IP addresses are going to be assigned to LIRs a lot of the discussion is about IP objects and blocks - these are usually assigned to LIR's customers
RIPE can contact the LIR
The LIR can probably contact their customer
The disjoint could be in the database
BUT
Assuming like you have that an entry in the database can only relate directly to a LIR is wrong.
member can be found, it is not so strange that, after a published notice with a due time frame, a relation is terminated. Certainly in a period of scarcity in IPv4 addresses, this should be common practice. (And if it happens to concern a criminal organisation, they won't show up any way. All others will within about 2 seconds of termination.)
So if correct data is standard practice and law enforcement needs them for whatever reason, they can access this data either through Whois of through correct proceedings in the Dutch law. Like it should be. Correct data saves money in the end, for all concerned, and makes becoming a member less attractive for individuals or organisations that most of us agree don't need a place on the internet. I don't think LEAs ask for more than that, but as a RIPE member I would look at my own organisation first. LEAs need to deal with LIRs more than an RIR, I'd guess, so assist them in finding these LIRs.
Wout
From: anti-abuse-wg-request@ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 8, Issue 9 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:13:31 +0200
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Introducing the RIPE NCC Report Form (julien tayon) 2. Re: current business practices (Frank Gadegast) 3. Re: Introducing the RIPE NCC Report Form (Chris Heinze) 4. Re: current business practices (Gert Doering) 5. Re: current business practices (Michele Neylon :: Blacknight) 6. Re: current business practices (Suresh Ramasubramanian) 7. Re: current business practices (Frank Gadegast)
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Message: 1 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:49:01 +0200 From: julien tayon<julien@tayon.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Introducing the RIPE NCC Report Form To: Brian Nisbet<brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> Cc: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Message-ID: <CAFpLVkyZQb0W3iCTMuq_uK3fBysQf8gHt8sP23MLypu3P4hriw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2012/4/11 Brian Nisbet<brian.nisbet@heanet.ie>:
Chris,
"Chris" wrote the following on 11/04/2012 11:03:
On 04/10/2012 05:18 PM, Joe St Sauver wrote:
Maintenance of the database documenting who's been allocated/assigned space is *core* to RIPE's mission.
simply wrong. ripe's core is allocation. that's what they do. your mission is your private error.
Ripe's core is at least to provide **change management** over contact on allocation of internet resources (IP, AS) so that stakeholder's can cooperate, since internet protocols relies on swift cooperation between entities. Imagine a world in which you cannot reach a LIR or RIR having wrong BGP rules ?
Furthermore, RIPE NCC is bound by its contract with ICANN in its mission of allocating resources. I think reading the actual contract might settle the topic pretty fast.
Since I don't have the contract under my eyes right now, I will make a simple reasoning based on public informations and personnal experience.
Let's stick to the common sense of database first : *Data accuracy is the most important property of a database.* Ripe NCC is entitled to manage the whois database, therefore it is in their mission to ensure DB integrity.
If it is not convincing enough, let's remember data accuracy is considered by ICANN as a **MUST DO** for delegated entities (both for gTLD and resources). Just search ICANN web sites and you'll have extended papers explaining why accuracy matters, and how this responsability is also delegated. http://www.icann.org/en/gsearch/accuracy
In a world without accurate whois contact it will be the the strongest's rule that shall prevail.
What tickles me is how can RIPE NCC bill instances they don't have the **accurate** contacts ? Are there 2 DBs one for billing (with accurate data) and another one for public access with inaccurate data ?
RIPE NCC cant choose the parts it likes in its delegated mission from ICANN. A contract is a contract and RIPE NCC is bound by its duties regarding ICANN. If ICANN states RIPE NCC MUST have accurates data, and MUST enforce internet policies I cannot see how RIPE NCC or RIPE can decide it is does not fall into their responsabilities.
Now, all everybody needs to know : * what level of accuracy ICANN can realistcly expect from its delegates ? * what are the internet policies ICANN mentions ?
Cheers.
-- Jul Experienced freelance for years (having worked for ISP).
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Message: 2 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:08:11 +0200 From: Frank Gadegast<ripe-anti-spam-wg@powerweb.de> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] current business practices To: "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net"<anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Message-ID:<4F85904B.8090203@powerweb.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
V
subpoena by deleting the wrong AS object from the database
;o)
Heh. ACK on the role. But I was thinking towards urging the ISP itself to take action (once you HAVE contacted them) on the abuse complaints. That's where the pressure of a lea agency can come in handy, if such a regulator is available.
Well, the only possibility would be the police. They do care here in Germany are kind of technical disadvanced :o(
There is some organizations this ISP is a member of (like the ECO), and they have also a abuse clearing board, but that one isnt really useful because it never did anything against their members ...
And why should they do something, they are not responsible for the resources ...
Kind regards, Frank
Pepijn
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Message: 3 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:49:13 +0200 From: Chris Heinze<Chris.Heinze@consol.de> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Introducing the RIPE NCC Report Form To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Message-ID:<4F857DC9.8060905@consol.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 04/11/2012 02:13 PM, Brian Nisbet wrote:
ripe's core is allocation. that's what they do. your mission is your private error.
right, that sums it up nicely, thanks.
Once all of v4 space is allocated (soon now, soon), the primary job of the NCC and the other four RIRs will be keeping a good registry.
ripe's job isn't defined by and doesn't depend on whether or not v4 space is completely allocated (which it btw probably never will). keeping a good registry is as explained a service kindly provided by ripe to help - and it did that since the beginning.
regards,
Chris
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Message: 4 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:29:17 +0200 From: Gert Doering<gert@space.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] current business practices To: Suresh Ramasubramanian<ops.lists@gmail.com> Cc: shane@time-travellers.org, Brian Nisbet<brian.nisbet@heanet.ie>, anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net, Tobias Knecht<tk@abusix.com>, "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight"<michele@blacknight.ie>, Laura Cobley<laura@ripe.net>, Florian Weimer<fw@deneb.enyo.de>, Frank Gadegast <ripe-anti-spam-wg@powerweb.de>, Gert Doering<gert@space.net> Message-ID:<20120411132917.GN84425@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hi,
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 06:50:02PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 6:32 PM, Frank Gadegast <ripe-anti-spam-wg@powerweb.de> wrote:
will receives this could please make a telnet mamba.ripe.net 25 from some IPs he own (best would be not using his or her usual IP, if he or she likes, lets see how big that problem really is, thats why I have to mail the most active people directly).
suresh@frodo 03:54:25 :~$ telnet mamba.ripe.net smtp Trying 2001:67c:2e8:11::c100:1328... Trying 193.0.19.40... telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused
Things seem to be RIPE for a change eh?
So, what exactly causes the assumption that mamba is supposed to be reachable from the outside, on Port 25?
$ host -t mx ripe.net ripe.net mail is handled by 250 postlady.ripe.net. ripe.net mail is handled by 200 postgirl.ripe.net.
Now, obviously, expecting anti-spammers to understand about MX records and how to read Received: lines might be asking for a bit much...
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
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