- anti-abuse-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Minutes from RIPE 85
by Markus de Brün 10 Nov '22

10 Nov '22

Hi all, thank you for attending the Anti-Abuse Working Group session at RIPE 85 and for your contributions and feedback. Our colleagues from RIPE NCC provided minutes for the session. Please have a look at the minutes and let us know by 24.11.2022 if you have any additions, clarifications or comments. Regards, your co-chairs

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Draft Agenda - AA-WG Session @ RIPE 85
by Brian Nisbet 11 Oct '22

11 Oct '22

Colleagues, Here is the draft agenda for our session on Thursday 27th October at 09:00 CEST. There is still some time available in the agenda if you would like to raise a work item, policy discussion or issue to the WG or present on a suitable topic. A. Administrative Matters * Welcome * Scribe, Chat, Stenography * MeetEcho Mic & Chat Etiquette * Ratings Where Appropriate * Approve Minutes from RIPE 84 * Finalise agenda * Code of Conduct B. Update * B.1. Recent List Discussion * B.2. RIPE NCC Training Webinar C. Policies - *C.1. D. Interactions - *D.1. Update from German Anti-Abuse Group "KG Abuse" E. Presentation - *E.1. urlscan.io X. A.O.B. Z. Agenda for RIPE 86 Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

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Anti-Abuse Training - Final? Draft Slides & Zoom Call
by Brian Nisbet 26 Sep '22

26 Sep '22

Colleagues, As you know the RIPE NCC L&D team has been working on a one hour anti-abuse training session. We've received substantial input from the WG and we're hoping that will continue as the Gerardo and the team work to get everything into the final state. First off, this is the current slide deck. If you have the opportunity we would ask if you could take a look and either reply with your feedback to the list or directly to Gerardo - gviviers(a)ripe.net https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1FylfGQoMrgg0xJjNnE3wLvcW9KV1KmwcE4c… We're also arranging for another online round table to discuss the material as needed, because sometimes voice is better than text. This will be taking place on Tuesday 27th September from 10:00 - 12:00 CEST on Zoom. The plan is to run down through the full slidedeck and allow for comments and discussion as needed. The link to this call will be: https://ripe.zoom.us/j/91448568019?pwd=VDFKWEJqT2lkbFdGbVpaL0FmL1R1Zz09 This call, as with any AA-WG activity, will be subject to the RIPE Community Code of Conduct. Thanks for all your work so far and I look forward to more productive discussion! Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

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Survey into skill gap in cyber security education and demand
by Wout de Natris 09 Sep '22

09 Sep '22

Dear colleagues, 67.5% of companies consider the gap between their expectations and the skills tertiary graduates bring to the workplace is having a strong or very strong impact on their performance. Many point to a lack of understanding of secure web communications, cloud computing and strategic thinking. We'd love to hear your views and suggestions. Join our (IS3C) survey at https://forms.gle/Dna6nSeiKMFY11cP9. Please consider taking this survey to ensure that its results are balanced and representative as this step is only the beginning of our work. Best regards, Wout de Natris Coordinator Internet Standards, Security and Safety Coalition (IS3C) IS3C: Making the Internet more secure and safer - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - De Natris Consult Kamerlingh Onnesstraat 43 Tel: +31 648388813 2014 EK Haarlem Skype: wout.de.natris denatrisconsult(a)hotmail.nl<mailto:denatrisconsult@hotmail.nl> http://www.denatrisconsult.nl Blog http://woutdenatris.wordpress.com

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Yet another BGP hijacking towards AS16509
by Siyuan Miao 23 Aug '22

23 Aug '22

Hi folks, Recently I read a post regarding the recent incident of Celer Network and noticed a very interesting and successful BGP hijacking towards AS16509. The attacker AS209243 added AS16509 to their AS-SET and a more specific route object for the /24 where the victim's website is in ALTDB: (Below is our IRRd4 server NRTM logging, UTC timezone) irrd.log-20220817.gz:31106270-ADD 96126 irrd.log-20220817.gz:31106280- irrd.log-20220817.gz:31106281-as-set: AS-SET209243 irrd.log-20220817.gz:31106306-descr: quickhost set irrd.log-20220817.gz:31106332-members: AS209243, AS16509 irrd.log-20220817.gz:31106362:mnt-by: MAINT-QUICKHOSTUK irrd.log-20220817.gz:31106392-changed: crussell(a)quickhostuk.net 20220816 irrd.log-20220817.gz:31106438-source: ALTDB irrd.log-20220817.gz:31147549-ADD 96127 irrd.log-20220817.gz:31147559- irrd.log-20220817.gz:31147560-route: 44.235.216.0/24 irrd.log-20220817.gz:31147588-descr: route irrd.log-20220817.gz:31147606-origin: AS16509 irrd.log-20220817.gz:31147626:mnt-by: MAINT-QUICKHOSTUK irrd.log-20220817.gz:31147656-changed: crussell(a)quickhostuk.net 20220816 irrd.log-20220817.gz:31147702-source: ALTDB Then they started announcing the prefix ... under another AWS ASN (AS14618) I guess AS1299 Arelion doesn't check if the origin AS of an announcement is in the customer's AS-SET but it's pretty normal and understandable. https://stat.ripe.net/widget/bgplay#w.resource=44.235.216.0/24&w.ignoreRean… Type: A > announce Involving: 44.235.216.0/24 Short description: The new route 34854 1299 209243 14618 has been announced Path: 34854, 1299, 209243, 14618, Community: 1299:35000,34854:3001 Date and time: 2022-08-17 19:39:50 Collected by: 00-2.56.11.1 Hjacking didn't last too long. AWS started announcing a more specific announcement to prevent hijacking around 3 hours later. Kudos to Amazon's security team :-) Type: A > announce Involving: 44.235.216.0/24 Short description: The new route 58057 34549 5511 1299 16509 has been announced Path: 58057, 34549, 5511, 1299, 16509, Community: 5511:521,5511:666,5511:710,5511:5511,34549:100,34549:5511 Date and time: 2022-08-17 23:08:47 Collected by: 00-194.50.92.251 The attacker cleaned up the IRR objects on 17 Aug and surprisingly no one seems to notice them ... irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517714-ADD 96196 irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517724- irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517725:as-set: AS-SET209243 irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517750-descr: quickhost set irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517776-members: AS209243, AS35437, AS37497 irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517815-mnt-by: MAINT-QUICKHOSTUK irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517845-changed: crussell(a)quickhostuk.net 20220817 irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517891-source: ALTDB irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517910-DEL 96197 irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517920- irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517921-route: 44.235.216.0/24 irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517949-descr: route irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517967-origin: AS16509 irrd.log-20220819.gz:26517987-mnt-by: MAINT-QUICKHOSTUK irrd.log-20220819.gz:26518017-changed: crussell(a)quickhostuk.net 20220816 irrd.log-20220819.gz:26518063-source: ALTDB Nowadays hijacking a service by forging AS path is pretty easy and RPKI won't be able to solve this (as it validates origin AS and prefixes only) :-( Regards, Siyuan

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Autoresponders
by Ángel González Berdasco 22 Aug '22

22 Aug '22

On 2022-08-22 at 11:40 +0200, Alan Levin wrote: > On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 at 07:50, someone <…(a)ripe.net<http://ripe.net>> wrote: > > I’m out of office till 22 August. Any RIPE Labs related queries can > > be sent to labs(a)ripe.net<mailto:labs@ripe.net> and one of my colleagues will get back to > > you. > > irony - three unsolicited messages on the same subject - appropriate > too This list was lucky. db-wg received 477 copies of this Out of Office message. It actually serves as a great example of what an autoresponder shall *not* be doing: * It only ran when the user returned to the office * It replied to every message, with no waiting period * It replied to mailing lists¹ * It replied *to its own vacation message* distributed by the mailing list, creating a loop And it happened from inside the same organization, so the delivery delay would have been minimal. It must have been a tiny Bedlam3 for RIPE. RFC 3834 recommendations were not pointless musings. Kind regards ¹ The list properly contained a Precedence: list header, so no fault of the mailing list software here. -- INCIBE-CERT - Spanish National CSIRT https://www.incibe-cert.es/ PGP keys: https://www.incibe-cert.es/en/what-is-incibe-cert/pgp-public-keys ==================================================================== INCIBE-CERT is the Spanish National CSIRT designated for citizens, private law entities, other entities not included in the subjective scope of application of the "Ley 40/2015, de 1 de octubre, de Régimen Jurídico del Sector Público", as well as digital service providers, operators of essential services and critical operators under the terms of the "Real Decreto-ley 12/2018, de 7 de septiembre, de seguridad de las redes y sistemas de información" that transposes the Directive (EU) 2016/1148 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 6 July 2016 concerning measures for a high common level of security of network and information systems across the Union. ==================================================================== In compliance with the General Data Protection Regulation of the EU (Regulation EU 2016/679, of 27 April 2016) we inform you that your personal and corporate data (as well as those included in attached documents); and e-mail address, may be included in our records for the purpose derived from legal, contractual or pre-contractual obligations or in order to respond to your queries. You may exercise your rights of access, correction, cancellation, portability, limitationof processing and opposition under the terms established by current legislation and free of charge by sending an e-mail to dpd(a)incibe.es. The Data Controller is S.M.E. Instituto Nacional de Ciberseguridad de España, M.P., S.A. More information is available on our website: https://www.incibe.es/proteccion-datos-personales and https://www.incibe.es/registro-actividad. ====================================================================

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Apologies for spam
by Alun Davies 22 Aug '22

22 Aug '22

Hello all, My apologies to everyone who received my out of office response this morning. Just wanted to note that the relevant messages have now been removed from the archives. Again, sorry for the spam! Best regards, Alun Davies RIPE NCC

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Call For Agenda Items - RIPE 85
by Brian Nisbet 22 Aug '22

22 Aug '22

Colleagues, We hope you're all having a good summer! As you have hopefully seen, registration has now opened for RIPE 85 in Belgrade - https://ripe85.ripe.net/ The meeting, running from the 24th - 28th October, will be hybrid and we're hoping to continue to evolve and make it as useful as possible for those in person and remote. The Anti-Abuse WG will be meeting and Markus, Tobias and I would invite people to submit topics for discussion, presentations for general enlightenment and, of course, work items for the working group. Speakers & presenters can either be present in Belgrade or reaching us live via the Internet! The session is currently scheduled for Thursday 27th October, but the date and time may both change as the various agendas fill up, we'll keep you posted. As always you can reach us at aa-wg-chair(a)ripe.net Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] So many idiots. So little time.
by Alan Levin 22 Aug '22

22 Aug '22

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 at 07:50, Alun Davies <adavies(a)ripe.net> wrote: > I’m out of office till 22 August. Any RIPE Labs related queries can be > sent to labs(a)ripe.net and one of my colleagues will get back to you. > irony - three unsolicited messages on the same subject - appropriate too > Jeroen, > > ist's hard to distinguish between straight statements and serious > questions on one hand and sarcasm, rhetorical questions and strawman > arguments on the other hand in written communication, especially when there > sometimes seems to be a "mode switch". I'm trying to respond seriously and > to be explicit about how I understood your statements. > > > > Am 14.08.22 um 10:26 schrieb jeroen(a)hackersbescherming.nl: > > My bad! I assumed that when u create or follow a training course that u > want > > to learn or teach a way that ALWAYS works. > > > > I'm unsure whether you meant that seriously or sarcastically. > > > > Of course the assumption is wrong. Training is a way of improving your > ability to do something, not of learning something that always works. A > football team will train to learn to play better and win more games, not to > learn a away that will let them win ALWAYS. Similarly, an abuse desk team > will train to learn ways of detecting abuse earlier, to distinguish between > true and false abuse accusations, to use tools and automation to focus > their human attention on the tricky problems instead of doing rote work, > etc. None of that will guarantee that there will be no abuse from their > network, but it will likely reduce the amount by catching it quicker and > making it unattractive for spammers. Of course, that's the theory, but my > experience from the other side of the fence is that quick and swift action > is the primary thing that reduces the amount of spam, and it should work > equally well and on a larger volume on the provider side. > > > > > > With my assumption of the below. > > To solve the abuse problem u either need a system that can hold the > abuser > > responsible or and that would be even better u need a system where nobody > > would grow an interest to even try to abuse > > > > Did you forget a period here? As such, this sentence sort of makes > sense, although I would not strive to "solve" the abuse problem but to > reduce the volume and impact on recipients. Holding abusers responsible may > be one way (although it would be necessary to define what that means). > > > > A system where nobody would grow an interest to even try abuse is > impossible, we know from the non-effectiveness of capital punishment > against murder etc. that there is no effective deterrant that keeps people > from wanting to do and actually doing horrible things. The only "effective" > way would be to lock up everybody as a safety measure. That's like blocking > access to port 25, surely it keeps out the spam, but would have some > undesirable side effects. > > > > So, this is not what I want. > > > > and when u start thinking into > > this direction all the other "BIG" problems in the world will become > easy to > > solve. (Yes u read this right they are easy to solve, we currently just > use > > the wrong systems (all over the world) to guide and lead us) > > Is this a strawman argument of the form "we should not try to solve > problem X because we can't solve problem Y and that's even bigger"? That's > faulty logic, I assume written tongue-in-cheek. > > > > When u would have a good system then a large portion or maybe even all of > > the current training material would be irrelevant since it is based on > the > > current system that doesn't provide a solution for the problem. > > > > That's an assumption about the training material (which I haven't seen > and know nothing about) and the current system that I don't share. It seems > to imply that there is no way of reducing the amount of spam in the current > system, which is IMO not true. > > > > I do think that the current system is lacking in some areas but is > overall usable, and that it is possible to reduce abuse within the > framework of the current system. Usable training material would teach what > can be done at one point (one provider) to achive this without requiring > undue cooperation from other players or changing the system. That is, > actually doable changes to one's operation to reduce the amount of abuse. > > > > > > What u are saying is that when I create a training that teaches 1+1=11 > and > > someone out there wants to learn this that this would be a usefull > training > > .... (maybe for someone to do on his own but not for a global/regional > > solution). > > Looks like a strawman argument again. I'm not proposing that training > should teach nonsense and that someone out there could want to learn > nonsense, so this would be useful training. What I was saying is that a > training course (which I presumed teaches something actually useful in > reducing the spam load) can only be useful for organizations that want to > get closer to that goal. If an organization does not share that goal (or > has different main goals), they most likely would not want or need the > training. > > > > It doesn't matter to which group u belong to, in the end we all belong to > > the same group called Humans.... > > We need a fair worldwide system where power is removed from all > > individuals!!!! (Since power allways creates a form of abuse) > > > > Looks like a hyperbole/strawman argument again: "If we can't solve the > worldwide power abuse issues, we should not even try to fight local abuse". > Faulty logic. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Jeroen > > Cheers, > > Hans-Martin > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or > change your subscription options, please visit: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg > -- > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change > your subscription options, please visit: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg > -- Alan Levin ---------------------------------- +27 21 4882820 (ddi)

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So many idiots. So little time.
by Ronald F. Guilmette 14 Aug '22

14 Aug '22

[ part 1 - text/plain - Notification 574B ] This is the mail system at host segfault.tristatelogic.com. I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. The mail system <abuse(a)serverius.net>: host mail.serverius.net[91.221.69.174] said: 554 5.7.1 This message has been blocked because ASE reports it as spam. (in reply to end of DATA command) [ part 2 - message/delivery-status - Delivery report 435B (suppressed) ] [ part 3 - message/rfc822 - Undelivered Message 23.2KB ] Number is required after -h Return-Path: <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com> Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id 754EF4E7D0; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 14:59:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com> To: abuse(a)serverius.net Cc: spamreports(a)tristatelogic.com Subject: Spam from your network (AS50673): [194.104.236.160] Date: 12 Aug 2022 14:59:24 -0700 X-Rfg-Spam-Report: (AS50673): [194.104.236.160] Message-Id: <20220812215924.754EF4E7D0(a)segfault.tristatelogic.com> ...

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