- anti-abuse-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Fw: [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01
by ripedenis＠yahoo.co.uk 12 Mar '16

12 Mar '16

Sorry I hit reply instead of reply-all... ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: "ripedenis(a)yahoo.co.uk" <ripedenis(a)yahoo.co.uk> To: Sander Steffann <sander(a)steffann.nl> Sent: Friday, 11 March 2016, 17:06 Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 Hi Sander I was not making any decision just expressing an opinion just as Elvis expressed his opinion on my implementation :) cheersdenis From: Sander Steffann <sander(a)steffann.nl> To: denis <ripedenis(a)yahoo.co.uk> Cc: Database WG <db-wg(a)ripe.net>; "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Sent: Friday, 11 March 2016, 16:54 Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 Hello Denis, > Sorry Elvis but you are neither a software engineer nor a regular user inputting data into the RIPE Database. So your unsubstantiated statement of 'poor' does not carry much weight. Excuse me, but you do not get to decide that a fellow working group member's contribution does not carry much weight. That is the working group chairs' job when deciding on consensus, and from experience I know that even the chairs only do that in very rare circumstances. Consensus is based on content and supporting arguments, not on whether you judge somebody worthy... Cheers, Sander

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01
by denis 11 Mar '16

11 Mar '16

HI Elvis On 10/03/2016 11:39, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote: > Hi Gert, > > I agree with you that the implementation of abuse-c was 'poor'. Sorry Elvis but you are neither a software engineer nor a regular user inputting data into the RIPE Database. So your unsubstantiated statement of 'poor' does not carry much weight. > > On 3/10/16 1:57 AM, Gert Doering wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Wed, Mar 09, 2016 at 11:36:48PM +0100, Horváth Ágoston János wrote: >>> It's not enough to state "let's add abuse-c here and here and here". >>> Also think about how one is supposed to return the abuse contact >>> afterwards. It should be algorithmically feasible to fetch the abuse >>> contact from the RIPE DB. Should inet(6)num take precedence? Should >>> the role object? or the organisation? or maybe a route? Or a >>> combination of these, with their parents involved? >> This is why I've detailed a possible and very well-defined search order >> in my proposal. >> >>> And one more thing. As far as data quality goes, users are not known >>> to keep their data up to date (sorry for the few exceptions - you're >>> not the rule). Then you will have to start to figure out which abuse-c >>> is outdated and which isn't; which one is still relevant and which is >>> not. That's NOT a database, that's a job for google. >> So, why is "require indirection via a organisation: and role: object" >> going to help with stale data? >> >> Except by making it so complicated that nobody is willingly going to >> use it to document abuse-handling exception for more specific subnets >> - in which case you've succeeded... > abuse-c should have been implemented just like admin-c and tech-c is, as > an attribute to the resource (inet(6)num and aut-num) objects. As a massive over duplicated pile of repetitive data in 3+ million objects. Really good idea Elvis. That is good database design...No one ever checks if the admin-c and tech-c point to the right objects in their 10s of thousands of resource objects. > > It is easier for the LIR to have it in one place only, but you need to > register an organisation and role object for each customer... if you > want them to handle the abuse themselves. or if you have different > departments handling abuse for different (parts of your) resources. I will say it again, again, again....I wrote a labs article with some ideas on this 2 years ago which may not be the best ideas, but as no one has even commented on them in 2 years who knows.... > > Maybe we should talk about changing the implementation of abuse-c such > that you can not register a resource (allocation or assignment) unless > you use the mandatory abuse-c (person or role) object, just as you do > with admin-c and tech-c today. Maybe we should talk about making admin-c and tech-c work like abuse-c. That would be a step in the right direction. cheers denis >> Gert Doering >> -- NetMaster > regards, > elvis >

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 53, Issue 24
by Marilson 10 Mar '16

10 Mar '16

On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 11:18:45AM +0100, Gert Doering wrote: >I actually hope that we're getting close to perfect address policy after >all these years of tweaking, and most work will happen elsewhere in future! Really? Perfect for whom? On Tue, 8 Mar, 2016 at 12:16:23 +0000, Sascha Luck reply: >Bwahahaha :) Maybe, *maybe*, once all the ipv4 space is finally gone ;p It would be ironic if it were not tragic. Marilson -----Mensagem Original----- From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 8:00 AM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 53, Issue 24 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 (Sascha Luck [ml]) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 12:16:23 +0000 From: "Sascha Luck [ml]" <aawg(a)c4inet.net> To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 Message-ID: <20160308121623.GG959(a)cilantro.c4inet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 11:18:45AM +0100, Gert Doering wrote: >I actually hope that we're getting close to perfect address policy after >all these years of tweaking, and most work will happen elsewhere in future! Bwahahaha :) Maybe, *maybe*, once all the ipv4 space is finally gone ;p rgds, Sascha Luck End of anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 53, Issue 24 *********************************************

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ROUTE objects for non RIPE resources
by denis 10 Mar '16

10 Mar '16

Hi guys For the last 2 or 3 RIPE Meetings a conversation has started just before the meeting and carried on during the meeting. It is the same conversation about what to do with ROUTE objects in the RIPE Database for non RIPE resources. The same possible solutions have been proposed at each meeting. By the end of the meeting the same conclusion is drawn...something needs to be done. Then.....silence....until just before the next meeting when the cycle is repeated. In fact if you look at the archive for the routing and DB WGs nothing has been said about this on the mailing lists since the start of RIPE 71. So are we going to have this same conversation just before RIPE 72 and end with the same result? Or do you think we could break this cycle and have a different conclusion...decide to do something instead of deciding something needs to be done. Subtle but significant difference. The simple solution I proposed that would solve the consequences of having these ROUTE objects in the RIPE Database was on the table 18 months ago. Most of the software building blocks for it already exist in the database software, so it could be implemented in a month or so. Even if this is not the final solution, as a temporary fix it could be up and running so easily and improve the confidence in the IRR. cheers denis

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objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01
by Ruediger Volk 09 Mar '16

09 Mar '16

Dear colleagues, I object to passing the policy as proposed. There is no serious need for the policy, and at this time and under curent circumstance it would actually be harmful. I believe that the supposed good intentions would be better served by other actions, and the policy focussing on enforcement is ill advised. I understand that the current implementation of the RIPE database allows legacy holders to enter abuse-c attributes for their legacy resources if that's currently not possible the required extension of the database should be discussed (in the approprioate wg) and implementation would NOT require the PDP (as more drastic changes have been done to the database - and that extension hardly would contradict existing policy). No PDP is needed to send friendly invitations to legacy holders to populate their data objects with abuse-c information; I'm sure asking the RIPE NCC to do this would not create an undue burden or serious problem. Enhancing the invitations with some additional information potentially helpful to the recipients could be considered too: - some hints/guidance about expected use and support of that mailbox (active members of the abuse handling community probably will NOT be the typical recipient! and no injuries are expected if any community member sees that information:-) - specific suggestions what to put into the abuse-c field (whatever the RIPE NCC might use to extrapolate abuse-c from existing data) The working group should contribute helpful information to be included. I'm quite certain running a second invitation campaign would be even less of a problem and effort for RIPE NCC; I cannot predict how much the information provided in a later campaign can be improved based on feedback and experience from an earlier one. You may argue, that such more friendly approach could have been used also earlier - and I would very much agree and I certainly complained and suggested that at least the forced population of missing abuse-c should be postponed until friendly information was made available. Now we do NOT HAVE TO repeat past errors... Specifically with legacy resource holders it would be a good idea for RIPE community and NCC to address them with an inviting and helpful approach; as there is a sad history of seemingly coercive and unfriendly communications towards legacy holders. REPEATING the error now - even considering the much lower number of relevant records - is however actually MORE SERIOUS in DAMAGING the CREDIBILITY of the working group (and as a consequence the RIPE NCCs position) because of the accumulated history. Repeated requests for information on supposed use und handling of abuse-c has been answered by pointing out that it is required by a policy that was consciously created without any such information. The new policy proposal painfully fits into the sad observation that the anti-abuse working group as a community has constantly put effort into enforcing creation and population of abuse-c data but not (even tried) to provide to the rest of the world helpful explanations on requirements and expected handling at the requested mailboxes. That observations leads to the question whether the community is not able to come up with some helpful explanation or whether it does not care... :-( In both cases asking for enforcement does seem neither appropriate nor acceptable and means that the request cannot be taken serious - bad for the perception of RIPE and RIPE NCC activety by parties that are not heavily involved in the community processes. Consider the typical person confronted with a request to define abuse-c: how deeply is he involved with the anti-abuse working group (where a common understanding might exist - I consider myself only occassional observer and not a member and don't know)? Trying to close more quickly and on a more constructive perspective let me skip to elaborate here on my judgement: at close inspection the rationale and arguments look quite broken. The policy content does actually not matter that much - look for a sketch of a potential harmless implementation approach above in this message. What matters is appropriate use of the PDP (it can be abused!!!) and what are good goals of the working group and good ways of achieving them. The assumed good goals (as I understand it) are (a) improving quality of abuse-c information in order to (b) improve abuse reporting and report handling processes and (c) extending the abuse-c coverage for Internet number resources in the RIPE NCC registry The policy proposal references (a) and (b) quite explicitly; I took the liberty to interpolate (b) which actually seems to be the primary goal, and it looks like the working group decided that this will be helped by means of creating distinctly identified mailbox information to be put into abuse-c. The criterium for gauging (a) seems to be whether "improved data" actually helps "improve processing" (b) - what else? Creating abuse-c entries of better/good quality obviously depends on the recipient being appropriate and informed about expected potential messages and preparing to deal with them. Forcing creation of abuse-c in any other way is not going to create better quality but actually looses information (you loose track of which entries have the "quality of informed and [potentially] prepared recipient"). We have to assume that Internet number resource holders requested to establish abuse-c - usually are NOT focussed an abuse handling (different core business:-) - in many cases are not members of the anti-abuse working (and unlikely to have insight into undocumented potential consensus views of the working group or the larger abuse-c activist community) - in general willing to cooperate (we really should care for those and help them! ... yes, there are others - from "don't care" to "evil") For making a reasoned decision about the recipient for abuse-c and preparing for handling messages one obviously needs some understanding/explanation of what is expected. If no such helpful information is offered at the time of requesting abuse-c setup, many well intentioned parties will *something* (not really good "quality") to fill required fields and little motivation to followup will remain. If they care to ask for helpful information and the answer stays "this is required by policy, and it consciously declines to explain", they are likely to conclude that they have to submit to RIPE policies and the policy makers+process that cannot be taken serious... I note that for goal (b) of course some common understanding of expected use and handling for the abuse-c mailbox is a prerequisite on BOTH sides (senders also!) I do not expect to see formal, precise, and exhaustive definition of requirements and intended/expected use of abuse-c use - that would seem fairly impossible and certainly would not provide a practical answer to the issue. The working group needs to followup it previous abuse-c policy by starting to create practically useful explanations, before considering more "enforcement" (actually IMHO all enforcement activety should [have] be[en] postponed - potentially replaced by friendly invitations). It may take considerable effort to develope consensus on such documentation - but is it reasonable to rely on all relevant outside parties to have the first contact figure out completely on his own and explain to his management, consultants, service providers, etc... what needs to be done? (what aggregated cost and what "quality" implications do you expect?) It's ok to have working groups that just have internal fun between some birds of a feather. If a working group feels like making demands (e.g. policies) to a larger community it should also consider what support it needs to provide to serve the purposes of that larger community. Thanks for your attention and consideration. Ruediger Volk P.S.: Sorry, for a painfully long message. Trust me I had more painful time writing - and making it shorter would have been worse - with termination not secure:-) I hope that the painful length does not obscure - valid concern - constructive suggestions

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01
by h.lu＠anytimechinese.com 08 Mar '16

08 Mar '16

Hi I fail to understand how spammer are legal in certain country has to do with my reasoning or logic. The argument is about if there is managing position for community to take, my answer is no, we are not law enforcement and we only do book keeping, we don't tell people what to do, if they want to be good guy, great, if they don't care about spam or any abuse so to say, ok, it's their call. Making things mandatory with no real enforcing power are just not working. So make logic simple to understand, if the abuse is serious as crime, you don't need abuse c to get the right person(law enforcement has much better way than ripe db), if it is not serious as crime, if the op cares, with or without abuse c they will have their abuse contact there, and will deal with it. For ops don't care, with or without abuse c, they still don't care. So you can put up an extra line ask people to fill, but I don't think it makes much difference. > On 4 Mar 2016, at 20:00, Jeffrey Race <jrace(a)post.harvard.edu> wrote: > > Dear Lu, > > Your reasoning fails the logic test because you do not cognize the mismatch > between the operation of "law to enforce things" and the spammer business > model. The loss to no single victim rises above the threshold to initiate > either criminal or civil proceedings. The spammers organize their business > model in this way expecting most people to have your attitude. > > This is clearly explained in > > <http://www.jeffreyrace.com/nugget/spam_05.pdf> > > Kind regards, > > Dr. Jeffrey Race, President > Cambridge Electronics Laboratories > 20 Chester Street, Somerville MA 02144-3005 > Tel +1 617 629-2805 Fax +1 617 623-1882 > > Avoid spinal damage from computer use! > Read "Cripples by Thirty?" > > <http://www.camblab.com/nugget/nugget.htm> > > --Original Message Text--- > From: Lu Heng > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:20:28 +1300 > > Hi there: > > I think the whole notion about we are managing the internet though the policy are not correct. > > > We are not managing the internet, we are book keeping really. > > > Denis, your argument standing on a group that if we do not manage the internet, the gov will step > in and do it for us, but that is largely untrue. > > > The Gov are managing it now as we speak, they have something called law to enforce things, they > really don't need bother to go though policy here to block content they dislike, bust people they > think are bad, find people are responsible, if there is a seriou crime going on, with or without > abuse-c, gov will find them or not---abuse c does not change the outcome. > > > Take China for example, A 500 m user can not access Facebook, tell me they go though any sort of > APNIC policy to do that, same goes for some countries inA Middle East. > > > So my last point is. If you like their gov job, you can apply one, don't try to push community here > to do gov's job. > > > On Friday 4 March 2016, denis <ripedenis(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Hi Peter > > OK lets cut to the bottom line. Does anyone NOT agree with these points: > > -Internet abuse (in it's various forms) is considered both a nuisance and a danger by the publicA > -Politicians will jump onto any band wagon that has popular public support and enhances their > careers > -Responsible internet resource management includes receiving and handling abuse complaints related > to the networks you manage > > If we all supported these points, especially the last one, then in an ideal world all network > managers would be happy to provide abuse contact details and would take action on complaints > received. > > Unfortunately we don't live in that ideal world. The fact that so many experienced technical > internet people are opposing this policy worries me. So many of you are fixating on this point > about 'mandatory', 'enforcing', 'justifying'. If everyone agreed with point 3 above then you would > all be willing to do this voluntarily anyway. So what difference does it make to those of you who > do this anyway if it is mandatory? > > But we know some people simply can't be bothered to handle abuse complaints and we also know some > people make money by providing services to the abusers. There is no point pretending this does not > happen. If there is a lot of money to be made some people will want a slice of it. That is why this > has to be mandatory. > > When abuse-c was first introduced it was made clear that this was the first step of a process. The > intention was for all IP addresses within the RIPE region to have one common way of documenting an > abuse contact that can be accessed programatically. It was also made clear that this first step had > nothing to do with whether anyone responds to reports sent to that contact. Because it was and > still is clear that some people don't want to publicise any abuse contact details it had to be and > still has to be mandatory. If you enter data into the RIPE Database you are required to ensure it > is correct. Dealing with whether anyone responds to the reports sent to this contact is a separate > issue and should not cloud the discussion on the abuse-c information in the RIPE Database. Neither > should the technical implementation of the abuse-c attribute. > > I know there are policies about policies for legacy resources. Personally I think that is crazy. > All IP addresses are technically the same no matter how or when you acquired it. Abuse can come > from any one of them. > > I don't know why we are making the policy side so complicated. The principle is simple. If you > manage IP addresses in the public domain, from where abuse can be generated, responsible management > requires you to provide abuse contact details!!! > > cheers > denis > > On 03/03/2016 23:30, Peter Koch wrote: > On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 11:46:45AM +0100, denis wrote: > > In these days of political interest in how the internet is 'managed' the > RIRs need to do more than 'just maintain an accurate registry'. The > > > indeed. The community should be careful to maintain and improve the > credibility and legitimacy of its policy development process. > ``Extra constitutional'' activity (imposing "abuse" handling procedures > camouflaged as syntax changes to database objects) and retroactive > changes to policy without an exceptional justification both aren't > helpful. > > 2016-01 claims "Better data quality", which is not backed with arguments. > 2016-01 claims "More accurate data for abuse contact", which is not > A A A A A supported by arguments or evidence/precedent. > > internet is a crucial part of modern life. Abuse is considered to be a > serious problem. What you are saying is that you don't give a dam about > abuse and are not interested in being part of the management of abuse. > > > The alleged correctness of data does not imply a "right to response" (cf ripe-563), > and rightfully so.A Therefore the claims that refusal to add abuse-c > would imply refusal to deal with abuse reports are pointless, since > the sheer presence of the attribute does not imply anything, either. > > Also, I have not heard RA¬diger (or anyone else) claim they would not > want to even add abuse-c - it's making this policy mandatory what is > being contested.A ripe-639 re-establishes the 'special role' of > legacy resources as exempt from policy changes: > > A A A A Any existing or future RIPE policy referring to resources shall not apply > A A A A to legacy resources unless the policy explicitly includes legacy resources in its > scope. > > Now, if that was simply a matter of a boilerplate in any future policy > (xxx shall also apply to legacy resources), this clause would not make > the slightest sense.A Consequently, a special consideration is needed. > 2016-01 simply refers to inconsistency (obviously a simple consequence > of ripe-639 and thus not exceptional) and "better data quality" - without > justification.A No indication is given of any harm caused by legacy > resources currently not subject to ripe-563.A ripe-563/ripe-639 > do not preclude use of abuse-c for legacy resources, either. > > All in all, I understand the motivation behind 2016-01, but the reasoning > is far too poor to justify proceeding with the proposal. > > -Peter > > > > > > > > -- > -- > Kind regards. > Lu > > > > > > >

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01
by Gilles Massen 08 Mar '16

08 Mar '16

Hi Denis, > What you are really saying here is that you are willing to accept that > many network managers don't want to handle abuse complaints. So make it > optional and let them leave it blank. As a community we have to accept that, whether we like it or not. The only way to force someone (unless you come from the 'shoot first, ask questions later' fraction) is via the legal system. > As a community are we willing to accept that many networks simply don't > want to handle abuse complaints? Or do we want it mandatory and then as > a next stage tackle these black holes with devnull. Let's extrapolate that line of thought, from the point of view of the one wanting to ignore reports (which is, btw, not the same as ignoring abuse...): - I need abuse-c? fine: devnull(a)example.com - oh, it has to exist? abuse@<lir.eu>, FWD to /dev/null - and now I have to answer? auto-reply is cheap. - human answer? Wally, please take care of that. And with each step the life of the *reporter* becomes more frustrating. Again, as a reporter I prefer no data (which is also data...) over wrong data any time. So the only part that might deserve attention is the people that is not aware of the abuse-c. Lobby them, inform them, harass them until they make a choice, whatever it is. And then respect the choice. best, Gilles -- Fondation RESTENA - DNS-LU 2, avenue de l'Université LU-4365 Esch-sur-Alzette tel: +352.4244091 fax: +352.422473

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01
by ripedenis＠yahoo.co.uk 07 Mar '16

07 Mar '16

Hi Job Interesting but I don't think this is for Joe Public who receives spam or phishing emails and wants to complain about them. I can't see your average non techie internet user downloading software to make a complaint. cheersdenis From: Job Snijders <job(a)ntt.net> To: denis <ripedenis(a)yahoo.co.uk> Cc: Randy Bush <randy(a)psg.com>; Nick Hilliard <nick(a)inex.ie>; andre(a)ox.co.za; RIPE DB WG <db-wg(a)ripe.net> Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016, 21:19 Subject: Re: [db-wg] [anti-abuse-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 On Mon, Mar 07, 2016 at 09:17:00PM +0100, denis wrote: > On 07/03/2016 16:49, Randy Bush wrote: > >>In the absence of an abuse contact mailbox attached to address > >>registration data, can you make some constructive suggestions about > >>how a recipient of internet abuse can get in contact with the people > >>who manage the address block and who, by implication, are likely to > >>have some form of contractual relationship with whoever is instigating > >>the abuse? > > > >i am not against having an abuse-c: field. i am against making it > >mandatory. all that'll get us is black holes. > > What you are really saying here is that you are willing to accept that many > network managers don't want to handle abuse complaints. So make it optional > and let them leave it blank. > > As a community are we willing to accept that many networks simply don't want > to handle abuse complaints? Or do we want it mandatory and then as a next > stage tackle these black holes with devnull. there are other ways to handle abuse on both reporting & resolving side. what seems to be the populair way these days is publishing abuse in feeds and subscribing to those feeds, no email involved. example: https://abuse.io/

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2016-01 Discussion Period extended until 5 April 2016 (Include Legacy Internet Resource Holders in the Abuse-c Policy)
by Marco Schmidt 07 Mar '16

07 Mar '16

Dear colleagues, The Discussion Period for the proposal 2016-01, "Include Legacy Internet Resource Holders in the Abuse-c Policy" has been extended until 5 April 2016. You can find the full proposal at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2016-01 You can review the most recent discussions at: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/anti-abuse-wg/2016-March/date.html We encourage you to review this policy proposal and send your comments to <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net>. Regards, Marco Schmidt Policy Development Officer RIPE NCC

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 53, Issue 13
by Marilson 06 Mar '16

06 Mar '16

Gentlemen, excuse me but you are discussing the sex of angels. At least we, the victims of abuse, do not need abuse-c or any information about spammers and scammers. All we need is the sp(c)am IP and an honest attitude of the ISPs. This IP is available, but the honest attitude of ISPs is far from satisfactory. With exceptions, of course! For the victim of abuse, know who and where the spammer is, it will only be useful if he is in their area. In this case we do not need Registrars, neither police nor rulers. Using social networks I have joined 150 victims of abuse at the door of a spammer. We no longer receive spam of that person. Regarding the attitude of ISPs with SCAMMER customer, I will give you real numbers, own experience: 1- By reporting with evidence, a scammer, for the first time, 90% of ISPs do not take any action. Note that I am talking about scammers. 2- By reporting with evidence, the same scammer, to the same ISP, for the second time, 50% of ISPs do nothing. This is unacceptable! 3- By reporting with evidence, the same scammer, to the same ISP, for the third time, 20% of ISPs do not take any action and continue hosting their scammer customer or delivering their scam. That's a crime! Conspiracy to practice crime. It is a police matter and they must be arrested. The most significant example of this criminal attitude is Amazonaws.com acting above the law and of its AUP, hypocritically exposed on their website. With one detail: that 20% of criminal ISPs do not bother with the fact that the accusations with evidence, are being copied to spam(at)uce.gov, gmail-abuse(at)google.com, abuse(at)registrar.xxx, lettersmailbox(at)economista.com, support(at)wsj.com, submit.snAXXem0rJTkVXXX(at)spam.spamcop.net, policy-staff(at)icann.org, guardian.readers(at)theguardian.com, krebsonsecurity(at)gmail.com, (at)antiphishing.org or apwg.org, privacy(at)council.bbb.org... Regarding the attitude of ISPs with SPAMMER customer these percentages are even higher. For civil society, privacy security, data available or not, none of that matters. What matters and is sufficient is an honest attitude of the ISPs. Or do you clean the house or the rulers will criminalize your activities pressured by the civil society that is tired of being pestered by email marketing and bandits trying to steal their savings. Thanks Marilson -----Mensagem Original----- From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 8:00 AM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 53, Issue 13 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 (Michele Neylon - Blacknight) 2. Re: [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 (Florian Weimer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 10:54:45 +0000 From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele(a)blacknight.com> To: "h.lu(a)anytimechinese.com" <h.lu(a)anytimechinese.com>, Jeffrey Race <jrace(a)post.harvard.edu> Cc: "pk(a)denic.de" <pk(a)denic.de>, "db-wg(a)ripe.net" <db-wg(a)ripe.net>, "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 Message-ID: <B376F13F-3752-401F-97E4-2182A0FE2192(a)blacknight.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On 05/03/2016, 09:53, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of h.lu(a)anytimechinese.com" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net on behalf of h.lu(a)anytimechinese.com> wrote: >Hi > >I fail to understand how spammer are legal in certain country has to do >with my reasoning or logic. > >The argument is about if there is managing position for community to take, >my answer is no, we are not law enforcement and we only do book keeping, >we don't tell people what to do, if they want to be good guy, great, if >they don't care about spam or any abuse so to say, ok, it's their call. Who? A LIR or an assignee? Considering the IPv4 space is such a valuable resource now I?d happily argue that if you do a bad job of managing it then maybe you shouldn?t have it >Making things mandatory with no real enforcing power are just not working. That?s more of a chicken and egg argument. The issue that abuse-C resolves is the provision of a consistent and thus parseable contact point for abuse issues. Of course if there was a way to get abuse contacts to be more responsive then everyone would be happier (or unhappier .. ). > >So make logic simple to understand, if the abuse is serious as crime, you >don't need abuse c to get the right person(law enforcement has much better >way than ripe db), if it is not serious as crime, if the op cares, with or >without abuse c they will have their abuse contact there, and will deal >with it. For ops don't care, with or without abuse c, they still don't >care. The issue isn?t that simple. Prior to the introduction of abuse-c people would try to contact whatever contact they could find. > So you can put up an extra line ask people to fill, but I don't think it > makes much difference. -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://ceo.hosting/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:57:14 +0100 From: Florian Weimer <fw(a)deneb.enyo.de> To: Randy Bush <randy(a)psg.com> Cc: andre(a)ox.co.za, "Sascha Luck \[ml\]" <dbwg(a)c4inet.net>, db-wg(a)ripe.net, anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01 Message-ID: <87si05yyyd.fsf(a)mid.deneb.enyo.de> Content-Type: text/plain * Randy Bush: >> there has to be accurate records for abuse-c > > really? and how does abuse-c affect the effective operation of the ncc > resource registry. They can point law enforcement to a more reliable self-service tool, I assume. End of anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 53, Issue 13 *********************************************

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