October 2020 - anti-abuse-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Appeal against the Anti-Abuse WG Co-chairs decisions on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of “abuse-mailbox”)
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 12 Nov '20

12 Nov '20

Hi Mirjam, See my responses below, in-line as many clarifications are clearly required, not just because this appeal, but because there is a misjudgment of the PDP itself. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 26/10/20 9:07, "Mirjam Kuehne" <mir(a)zu-hause.nl> escribió: Dear Jordi, Regarding the appeal you submitted on 5 October to the RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group mailing list, I would like to inform you about the decision of the RIPE Working Group Chairs Collective (according to the procedure as defined in ripe-710). [Jordi] I don't think the PDP has been followed in full for this appeal. For example, there was not announcement of the publication of the appeal in the web site. The WG Chairs Collective (WGCC) decided to uphold the decision of the Co-Chairs of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. Please find below their detailed response. Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne RIPE Chair ======== Summary ======= The WGCC does not find sufficient reason to overturn the ruling of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox"). If Jordi wishes to bring a new proposal that he thinks may achieve consensus, we note that 2019-04 was being considered during an unusual time, when we have not had face-to-face meetings due to the COVID-19 pandemic. So it faced difficulties not normally facing a policy proposal. As always, the Anti-Abuse WG chairs may decide not to adopt any new proposal. [Jordi] Could you clarify this paragraph; I can't parse it. Scope ===== The WGCC considers the appeal process to be solely to determine if the working group chairs made a reasonable declaration of consensus or lack of consensus. The appeal process is able review whether the process was followed, or whether there was bias shown in the declaration. The appeal process will not re-visit any of the points for or against the proposal. [Jordi] Following the PDP, I can't agree with this. Can you clarify? Discussion ========== The appeal submitted includes several points that the WGCC found important to consider. These are discussed here. Points outside of the scope of the appeal process are omitted. RIPE NCC Impact Analysis ------------------------ The appeal will not review the accuracy of the RIPE NCC impact analysis. The WGCC defers to the expertise of the RIPE NCC staff who performed the analysis and the members of the Anti-Abuse WG who received the analysis. Further, an impact analysis is information intended to be helpful to decide whether to adopt a policy. The RIPE community is free to assign whatever weight it wishes. [Jordi] However, according to this, the co-chairs should also consider that the justification provided by the author against the objections is clearly demonstrating that the analysis impact is wrong in certain aspects, so those objections can't be accepted as valid. Discussion During the Review Phase ---------------------------------- The need to re-state opinions was explicitly mentioned in the e-mail moving the policy proposal to the review phase. It is unfortunate that the importance of this was not clear to Jordi. Possibly in the future this can be highlighted in some way. [Jordi] This is against the PDP. The chairs can even say I must sing a song, but the only valid process is the one CLEARLY STATED in the PDP. Nothing else. Otherwise there is a clear subjectivity in the process which invalidates it. Timing of Consensus Declaration ------------------------------- Jordi mentions several possible changes to the policy proposal which may have led to consensus. He suggests that the declaration of consensus was made too soon. We recognize that this is a bit of an odd time, due to COVID-19. This has removed one of our valuable tools, the face-to-face meetings. The already-tricky job of the working group chairs in the PDP has been made harder. We rely on the chairs of the WG involved to decide whether or not a proposal is likely to ever reach consensus. There are no guidelines given for this decision. We find that the Anti-Abuse WG chairs were reasonable in the timing of declaring that there is no consensus. Specific Points in Conclusion ----------------------------- The conclusion states: 1. It is not acceptable to declare lack of consensus and at the same time recognize that there was “some clear support for the policy during the Discussion Phase”. This is not true. Having support for a policy does not _necessarily_ mean there is consensus. [Jordi] Exactly the same that declaring no-consensus based on justifications that have been refuted by the author, is not acceptable. 2. It is not acceptable to, due to the lack of messages in the Review Phase, instead of extending it, considering the summer vacations period, declare lack of consensus. We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in not extending the Review Phase. [Jordi] Based on what? Because this is even clearly against the text of the co-chairs decision. You also are recognizing across the text that the circumstances during the Covid are special, so how come then it should be acceptable not to extend the review phase considering the lack of responses, and the summer period in addition to the Covid itself? 3. It is not acceptable to accept repeated objections as valid when have been already refuted in a previous phase. The consensus declaration should defer to the community and what they consider valid. It appears to have done so in this case. [Jordi] Once more, lack of consensus can't be determined based on objections which are invalid as they have been reasonably refuted by the author and even other community members. 4. It is not acceptable to, considering the PDP (“The PDP is designed so that compromises can be made and genuine consensus achieved”), subjectively decide that “regardless of possible edits, reaching consensus in the short or medium term”, when there are possible ways to address the objections, which have anyway already being addressed. We find the judgment of the Anti-Abuse WG chairs to be reasonable in declaring a lack of consensus. [Jordi] This is unacceptable. If the discussion shows that changes to the proposal can bring a new version which may achieve consensus, then it should be allowed. We know that different proposals have taken different time and different number of versions to achieve consensus, so such decision about if a proposal can reach or not consensus, can't be based on a subjective decision. New Policy Proposal ------------------- In principle there is nothing to prevent Jordi or anyone else from submitting an updated version of 2019-04. However, in the Address Policy working group having submitted an unsuccessful policy proposal did prejudice the working group against accepting other submissions. So there is some possible concern that an updated version would have a more difficult time. There are many factors to balance when deciding what proposals to accept, and the work of balancing them is up to the working group chairs. So we do _not_ explicitly request that the Anti-Abuse working group chairs adopt any subsequent policy proposals. We _do_ ask that they give extra consideration to the unusual circumstances that we are attempting to make policies in. We do not have any recommendation to Jordi whether he or anyone else should submit an updated version of 2019-04. [Jordi] I can't parse this. It looks contradictory. Previous text seems that is ok to the co-chairs to reject a new version, but here it is clearly stated that anyone can do it? Are we talking about a new version of the same proposal or a new proposal? Working Group Chairs Excluded ============================== The working group chairs of the Anti-Abuse working group were not part of the discussions regarding the appeal. A number of other working group chairs recused themselves from the appeal. These were: * Erik Bais * Gert Doering * Denis Walker In addition, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O'Reilly recused themselves from discussion and writing of the appeal. Recommendation to All RIPE WG Chairs ==================================== We recommend that all RIPE WG Chairs provide extra help for all policy proposals while we are struggling to deal with lack of face-to-face contact. The form of this help will vary depending on the proposal. The rest of the WGCC is available to discuss any topics related to this if any WG chairs want additional feedback or ideas. This advice does not strictly fall within the scope of the appeal, but the appeal brought the issue to the attention of the WGCC. We consider it important to mention here. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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Post in RIPELABS blog on Internet standards deployment
by Wout de Natris 27 Oct '20

27 Oct '20

Dear colleagues, Following my request to you last summer, to participate in a questionnaire on the deployment of Internet standards and ICT best practices, I have written a post on the outcomes and the next steps to be taken in the DC-ISSS. You find the link to the post attached. The DC-ISSS is looking for experts interested to work with us on either of the three topics that have been given priority unanimously by those currently participating already: Procurement and business case; Education curricula; Security by design IoT. Please let me know should you have any questions or would like to know more. Those interested can join the DC-ISSS through the website of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF). Kind regards, Wout de Natris https://labs.ripe.net/Members/wout_de_natris/invitation-to-igf-dynamic-coal…

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Appeal against the Anti-Abuse WG Co-chairs decisions on proposal 2019-04 (Validation of “abuse-mailbox”)
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 26 Oct '20

26 Oct '20

Hi all, This appeal (attached in PDF) follows the process outlined by ripe-710 (RIPE PDP). Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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Draft Agenda - Anti-Abuse WG @ RIPE 81
by Brian Nisbet 19 Oct '20

19 Oct '20

Colleagues, Here is the draft agenda for our session next week. It will take place via the RIPE 81 meeting platform at 10:00 CET/UTC +1 on Thursday 29th October. As mentioned, there is likely some time still available if anyone has anything they'd like to bring to the WG. Please note C.2. where the Co-Chairs would like to facilitate some open discussion on where the WG feels we might go in regards to abuse validation and other similar topics. A. Administrative Matters * Welcome * Scribe, Chat, Stenography * Chat Etiquette * Ratings Where Appropriate * Approve Minutes from RIPE 80 * Finalise agenda B. Update * B1. Recent List Discussion C. Policies - *C.1. Status of Policy Proposal 2019-04 - Validation of "abuse-mailbox" *C.2. Open discussion on abuse validation & next steps D. Interactions - E. Presentation - X. A.O.B. Z. Agenda for RIPE 82 Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

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Final-ish Call for Agenda Items: AA-WG @ RIPE81
by Brian Nisbet 14 Oct '20

14 Oct '20

Colleagues, The AA-WG will be meeting at RIPE81 on Thursday 29th October at 10:00 CET. We will be posting a draft agenda later this week, but we still have some time free, so if you would like to raise any items with the WG, please contact the Co-Chairs at aa-wg-chair(a)ripe.net Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

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