January 2020 - anti-abuse-wg - mailman.ripe.net

working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 17 Jan '20

17 Jan '20

Hi Michele, (changing the subject so we can correctly track this and following emails) The last version is available here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04 But the goal of this discussion is to understand what the community want, for making a new version. I think we are having a good discussion with several key points and already looking in a way forward. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 17/1/20 11:49, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Michele Neylon - Blacknight" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net en nombre de michele(a)blacknight.com> escribió: I've been trying to follow the back and forth here over the last few days and to be honest I'm rather confused. Which text is actually being proposed? A lot of the discussion here seems to have gone off into all sorts of tangents and it's hard to see what is actually being discussed Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 17 Jan '20

17 Jan '20

Hi all, I'm working in a new version of the proposal 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox"). In the last discussion phase, the only detailed response to this proposal that I got was from Carlos Friacas (which I will respond in detail later-on, as this may also help to revive the discussion). The main question/issue here is still that the actual policy is just a "technical validation". It confirms that there is a mailbox but it doesn't confirm that: 1) Accept emails for abuse reporting 2) The mailbox is the right one and not from someone else, not related to the abuse processing 3) The mailbox is attended and not a black-hole, so nobody pay attention to the abuse reports, or even worst, not full Anything not fulfilling that is useless (as will not fulfil the mission for that mailbox), and then we don't need an abuse-c at all. Even more, I think we can say that an invalid contact, it is against the role of the RIR for having accurate data. It will be interesting if the staff can provide actual data from the existing policy (ripe-705), such as: 1) Has the validation already been performed in all the contacts or only a % of the LIRs and end-users? 2) How many have failed in the first run? 3) After that failure (for those that failed), have the contacts been updated, or only a % of them? Has this helped to located "not anymore existing LIRs or end-users"? How much time, average, takes for the invalid contacts to be corrected? Have them been validated again after some months? 4) How many (%) of those that didn't failed we know that are real abuse-c contacts and not just an existing mailbox that may be not from the right person/team, or even bouncing emails or nobody reading them? I'm happy to hear other inputs, stats, data, etc. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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@EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
by Marcolla, Sara Veronica 17 Jan '20

17 Jan '20

Alex, You say “they just feel this issue should be address via leveraging RIPE resouces”, but I do not see so far any concrete proposal in the sense of addressing issues, only shooting down proposals (for good or bad reasons, I am not entering into the merit here) one after the other. Let’s leverage any resource, but at the same let’s solve the problems – without deflecting the attention with every message. Cheers, Sara From: Alex de Joode <alex(a)idgara.nl> Sent: 16 January 2020 16:30 To: Marcolla, Sara Veronica <Sara.Marcolla(a)europol.europa.eu> Cc: 'Sérgio Rocha' <sergio.rocha(a)makeitsimple.pt>; 'anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net' <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] @EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") Hi Sara, The issue with your statement below is that RIPE NCC cannot (legally, under Dutch contract law) disconnect resources if a resource holder (or more likely his customer) does not (properly) deal with abuse complaints. (for instance due to reasons of proportionality) Currently RIPE NCC mandates an email address for receiving abuse notices (which is good, as companies can specify a specific address that is monitored by people who can take action, and notifiers have a way to find out where to sent notices for speedy resolution). The availability of this address is checked by RIPE. So the current system basically works to enhance the infrastructure for those that are willing to deal with abuse notices. Some within this community do feel this is not enough. That as RIPE controls resources, RIPE should be put in a position to leverage these resources in such a way as to ensure all it's resource holders deal with abuse notice in a proper way. This would then lead to a crime free internet and everybody is happy. Implementing this is a fundament shift in the role and responsibility of RIPE. A large and vocal group here, do not believe this "deputisation" is the direction RIPE should pursue. That does not mean they are in favour of a "un-safe, spam infested, crime ridden internet", they just feel this issue should be address via leveraging RIPE resouces. -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex(a)idgara.nl<mailto:alex@idgara.nl> | +31651108221 | Skype:adejoode On Thu, 16-01-2020 14h 23min, "Marcolla, Sara Veronica" <Sara.Marcolla(a)europol.europa.eu<mailto:Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu>> wrote: Very well put, Sérgio. Thank you for voicing clearly the concern of (at least a part of) the community. We should not forget that, according to the provisions of RIPE NCC audits, “every party that has entered into an agreement with the RIPE NCC is contractually obliged to provide the RIPE NCC with complete, updated and accurate information necessary for the provision of the RIPE NCC services and to assist the RIPE NCC with audits and security checks”. Complete, accurate information goes hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS, spammers, and criminals in general. If the community does not agree that everyone has the right to a safe, spam free, crime free Internet, maybe we have some issue to solve here first. Kind regards, Sara Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) Eisenhowerlaan 73, 2517 KK The Hague, The Netherlands www.europol.europa.eu<http://www.europol.europa.eu> From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net>> On Behalf Of Sérgio Rocha Sent: 16 January 2020 13:38 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") Hi, Agree, This anti-abuse list seems the blocking group to any anit-abuse response measure. It's amazing that nobody cant propose anything without receiving a shower of all sorts of arguments against There is an idea that everyone has to hold, if as a community we cannot organize a policy, one of these days there will be a problem that will make governments take the opportunity to legislate and we will no longer have the free and open internet. There are a feew ideas that is simple to understand: 1 - If you have been assigned a network you have responsibilities, paying should not be the only one. 2 - There is no problem with email, since ever are made solutions to integrate with emails. There is no need to invent a new protocol. Who has a lot of abuse, invests in integrating these emails. 3 - If you have no ability to manage abuse should not have addressing, leave it to professionals. The internet is critical for everyone, the ability for actors to communicate with each other to respond to abuse must exist and RIPE must ensure that it exists. It’s like the relation with local governments, there is a set of information that has to be kept up to date to avoid problems, in RIPE it must be the same. Sergio From: anti-abuse-wg [mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Fi Shing Sent: 16 de janeiro de 2020 04:55 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") >> Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. I just do not understand how anyone on this list (other than a criminal or a business owner that wants to reduce over heads by abolishing an employee who has to sit and monitor an abuse desk) could be talking about making it easier for abuse to flourish. It is idiotic and is not ad hominem. This list is filled with people who argue for weeks, perhaps months, about the catastrophic world ending dangers of making an admin verify an abuse address ONCE a year .... and then someone says "let's abolish abuse desk all together" and these idiots emerge from the wood work like the termites that they are and there's no resistance? The good news is that nothing talked about on this list is ever implemented, so .. talk away you criminals. --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com<mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com>> Date: 1/16/20 11:47 am To: "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>> In message <20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@ email19.asia.godaddy.com<mailto:20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@%0bemail19.asia.godaddy.com>>, "Fi Shing" <phishing(a)storey.xxx<mailto:phishing@storey.xxx>> wrote: >That is the most stupid thing i've read on this list. Well, I think you shouldn't be quite so harsh in your judgement. It is not immediately apparent that you have been on the list for all that long. So perhaps you should stick around for awhile longer before making such comments. If you do, I feel sure that there will be any number of stupider things that may come to your attention, including even a few from your's truly. Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. >Which criminal is paying you to say this nonsense, because no ordinary person >that has ever received a spam email would ever say such crap. I would also offer the suggestion that such inartful commentary, being as it is, ad hominem, is not at all likely to advance your agenda. It may have felt good, but I doubt that you have changed a single mind, other than perhaps one or two who will now be persuaded to take the opposing position, relative to whatever it was that you had hoped to achieve. Regards, rfg ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. ******************* ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. *******************

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Abuse mailbox validation?
by Michele Neylon - Blacknight 17 Jan '20

17 Jan '20

I've been trying to follow the back and forth here over the last few days and to be honest I'm rather confused. Which text is actually being proposed? A lot of the discussion here seems to have gone off into all sorts of tangents and it's hard to see what is actually being discussed Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] @EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 17 Jan '20

17 Jan '20

Hi Alex, Undersood, and thanks a lot; it is very helpful to know that the ecommerce directive has a problem. As said, I’m not advocating for RIPE to take actions if the operator doesn’t react on an abuse case. What I’m trying to make sure, mainly, is that the abuse contact is a *real one*. The actual validation doesn’t ensure this. So the current situation (using your words) is not correct. I think this is the main problem. I believe most of the LIRs/end-users, don’t understand that there is a “small” problem here. So a direct question. Do you think it is acceptable that RIPE NCC does a good validation (as done by ARIN, APNIC and soon LACNIC), or it is acceptable that any operator can use a fake email? Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 16/1/20 18:04, "Alex de Joode" <adejoode(a)idgara.nl> escribió: Hi Jordi, The inability based on the current ecommerce directive to adequately hold providers responsible when they ignore notices is the reason the Dutch government came up with some 'suggestions' on how to fix these. I'm involved in mitigating the adverse effects of these proposals. (I'm a lawyer and a lobbyist, so a double bad ;)) In my opinion RIPE should ensure those willing have an easy means of knowing who to contact. (that is the current situation) Full mailboxes/bounces etc is something the resource holder should take care of himself. Resource holders who are not interested in properly handling notices, and are striving for a 'McColo status' should be dealt with. However that should not be a role nor a responsibility of RIPE. Europol' EC3, JIT's, local police etc should primarily deal with this (yes takes time and effeort). Advocating for a role for RIPE basically is outsourcing policing (based on Term of Service, something advocated by "your local police" as this looks like a "quick fix" however expect them to insist your ToS needs to have an article "x" and "y" soon.), and removes a lot of due process safeguards you have under the criminal system. If the internet is a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" the powers that be should allocate enough resources to deal with the problem. -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex(a)idgara.nl | +31651108221 | Skype:adejoode On Thu, 16-01-2020 17h 17min, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: Hi Alex, My reading of the eCommerce Directive (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32000L0031) is different. Some points (most relevant text only): (40) … the provisions of this Directive relating to liability should not preclude the development and effective operation, by the different interested parties, of technical systems of protection and identification and of technical surveillance instruments … (44) A service provider who deliberately collaborates with one of the recipients of his service in order to undertake illegal acts goes beyond the activities of "mere conduit" or "caching" and as a result cannot benefit from the liability exemptions established for these activities. (46) In order to benefit from a limitation of liability, the provider of an information society service, consisting of the storage of information, upon obtaining actual knowledge or awareness of illegal activities has to act expeditiously to remove or to disable access to the information concerned ... So, if I'm reading it correctly (not being a lawyer), a service provider not acting against abuse when it has been informed of so, is liable. I'm sure if the service provider tries to avoid being "informed" by not looking at notifications (email, postal, fax, etc.), they will also be liable in front of courts. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 16/1/20 16:40, "Alex de Joode" <alex(a)idgara.nl> escribió: Jordi, Nice analogy, but when you add the eCommerce Directive into the mix, where a network provider (or hosting provider) is not liable for what their users do, the outcome changes. Only if you have knowledge there might be a possibility for liability, but if you do not accept abuse notices, and therefore do not have knowledge you are not liable. Also note there is no monitoring obligation, but if you do monitor you can gain knowledge and become liable for -everything-. So the current legal environment (in the EU) isn't very 'pro' abuse handling. -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex(a)idgara.nl | +31651108221 | Skype:adejoode On Thu, 16-01-2020 15h 18min, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: Let’s try to see it from another perspective. If you’re an electricity provider, and one of your customers injects 1.000 v into the network and thus create damages to other customers (even from other electricity providers), the electricity provider must have the means to resolve the problem, disconnect that customer if needed, and pay the damages if the customer creating them don’t do that. When this happens, most of the time, the customer insurance will cover it, initially, and then claim to the electricity provider insurance, which in turn, can claim to the customer creating the trouble. If insurance doesn’t work, most of the time, law will make the electricity provider responsible at the same level of the defaulting customer (especially if this one doesn’t pay the damages). I’m sure that this is the same in every EU country. Can we agree on that? This is totally symmetric to the Internet. An operator provides a service. If a customer is creating damages, even to customers of other operators, the minimum that the provider of the defaulting customer should be able to do is: 1) Receive the abuse report (it can be automated) 2) Investigate the abuse (it can be automated in many cases, especially if we mandate a format for the reporting, and there are open source tools that do that for most of the cases) 3) If it is against the AUP which its customers, take actions, warnings to the customer the first time, etc., even disconnecting the customer (of course, this means losing customers such as spammers that pay a lot …) I don’t expect to respond to the abuse, but it’s nice to do. There are many open source ticket systems that do most of this. I don’t expect to compensate the victims, but I’m sure it can be done if the victims go to the courts. No difference with the electricity example, just we don’t have (as I know) this kind of insurance for Internet abuses. Actually, it will be very nice to have those insurances, because insurance companies have the power to put together many claims in the courts, so operators that don’t care about abuse pay for it. Saludos, Jordi @jordipalet El 16/1/20 15:03, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Volker Greimann" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net en nombre de vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> escribió: Hi Sara, isn't making the world (and the internet) first and foremost a job of law enforcement agencies like the police and Europol? While I agree that everyone has a role to play, crime prevention and protection of the public is part of the LEA job description, right? Civil society entities certainly have a role to play, but it does not help trying to deputize them into a role they do not carry. I disagree that the contract language you quote puts any duty of care regarding the abuse of any networks by third parties on the parties to the agreement. That duty may arise from other sources, but this language is directed at its own information the party provides to RIPE NCC and the cooperation with any audits. Just because it includes the word security does not mean it refers to all thinkable security issues. The ability of any part of the internet infrastructure to curtail abuse that somehow touches services it providers is usually severely curtailed and its ability to review abuse complaints is usually limited to the resources it provides. In many cases, that is simply not enough information to go on when dealing with many common forms of abuse. Best, Volker Am 16.01.2020 um 14:23 schrieb Marcolla, Sara Veronica: Very well put, Sérgio. Thank you for voicing clearly the concern of (at least a part of) the community. We should not forget that, according to the provisions of RIPE NCC audits, “every party that has entered into an agreement with the RIPE NCC is contractually obliged to provide the RIPE NCC with complete, updated and accurate information necessary for the provision of the RIPE NCC services and to assist the RIPE NCC with audits and security checks”. Complete, accurate information goes hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS, spammers, and criminals in general. If the community does not agree that everyone has the right to a safe, spam free, crime free Internet, maybe we have some issue to solve here first. Kind regards, Sara Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) Eisenhowerlaan 73, 2517 KK The Hague, The Netherlands http://www.europol.europa.eu From: anti-abuse-wg anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net On Behalf Of Sérgio Rocha Sent: 16 January 2020 13:38 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") Hi, Agree, This anti-abuse list seems the blocking group to any anit-abuse response measure. It's amazing that nobody cant propose anything without receiving a shower of all sorts of arguments against There is an idea that everyone has to hold, if as a community we cannot organize a policy, one of these days there will be a problem that will make governments take the opportunity to legislate and we will no longer have the free and open internet. There are a feew ideas that is simple to understand: 1 - If you have been assigned a network you have responsibilities, paying should not be the only one. 2 - There is no problem with email, since ever are made solutions to integrate with emails. There is no need to invent a new protocol. Who has a lot of abuse, invests in integrating these emails. 3 - If you have no ability to manage abuse should not have addressing, leave it to professionals. The internet is critical for everyone, the ability for actors to communicate with each other to respond to abuse must exist and RIPE must ensure that it exists. It’s like the relation with local governments, there is a set of information that has to be kept up to date to avoid problems, in RIPE it must be the same. Sergio From: anti-abuse-wg [anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net] On Behalf Of Fi Shing Sent: 16 de janeiro de 2020 04:55 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") >> Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. I just do not understand how anyone on this list (other than a criminal or a business owner that wants to reduce over heads by abolishing an employee who has to sit and monitor an abuse desk) could be talking about making it easier for abuse to flourish. It is idiotic and is not ad hominem. This list is filled with people who argue for weeks, perhaps months, about the catastrophic world ending dangers of making an admin verify an abuse address ONCE a year .... and then someone says "let's abolish abuse desk all together" and these idiots emerge from the wood work like the termites that they are and there's no resistance? The good news is that nothing talked about on this list is ever implemented, so .. talk away you criminals. --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com> Date: 1/16/20 11:47 am To: "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> In message <mailto:20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@ email19.asia.godaddy.com>, "Fi Shing" <phishing(a)storey.xxx> wrote: >That is the most stupid thing i've read on this list. Well, I think you shouldn't be quite so harsh in your judgement. It is not immediately apparent that you have been on the list for all that long. So perhaps you should stick around for awhile longer before making such comments. If you do, I feel sure that there will be any number of stupider things that may come to your attention, including even a few from your's truly. Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. >Which criminal is paying you to say this nonsense, because no ordinary person >that has ever received a spam email would ever say such crap. I would also offer the suggestion that such inartful commentary, being as it is, ad hominem, is not at all likely to advance your agenda. It may have felt good, but I doubt that you have changed a single mind, other than perhaps one or two who will now be persuaded to take the opposing position, relative to whatever it was that you had hoped to achieve. Regards, rfg ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. ******************* -- Volker A. Greimann ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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Proposal
by Ronald F. Guilmette 16 Jan '20

16 Jan '20

My apologies. I see that I must make a slight but important correction to my proposal... Be it resolved that: Henceforth, and until this policy is retracted, it shall be the policy and practice of RIPE NCC to place electronic copies of all documents used to establish the bona fides of each and every RIPE member WHICH IS NOT A NATURAL PERSON on the RIPE web site, and in a manner which will allow free and unfettered public access to all such documents. Discuss. Regards, rfg

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] @EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 16 Jan '20

16 Jan '20

Hi Sara, While I fully agree with Sergio and yourself, the issue here is that this part of your text “Complete, accurate information goes hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS, spammers, and criminals in general” Is not documented, so not “obvious” (as legal text) to everyone or I’m missing something? Of course, I fail to see that any operator can deny that … but is not in the text. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 16/1/20 14:24, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Marcolla, Sara Veronica" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net en nombre de Sara.Marcolla(a)europol.europa.eu> escribió: Very well put, Sérgio. Thank you for voicing clearly the concern of (at least a part of) the community. We should not forget that, according to the provisions of RIPE NCC audits, “every party that has entered into an agreement with the RIPE NCC is contractually obliged to provide the RIPE NCC with complete, updated and accurate information necessary for the provision of the RIPE NCC services and to assist the RIPE NCC with audits and security checks”. Complete, accurate information goes hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS, spammers, and criminals in general. If the community does not agree that everyone has the right to a safe, spam free, crime free Internet, maybe we have some issue to solve here first. Kind regards, Sara Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) Eisenhowerlaan 73, 2517 KK The Hague, The Netherlands www.europol.europa.eu From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of Sérgio Rocha Sent: 16 January 2020 13:38 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") Hi, Agree, This anti-abuse list seems the blocking group to any anit-abuse response measure. It's amazing that nobody cant propose anything without receiving a shower of all sorts of arguments against There is an idea that everyone has to hold, if as a community we cannot organize a policy, one of these days there will be a problem that will make governments take the opportunity to legislate and we will no longer have the free and open internet. There are a feew ideas that is simple to understand: 1 - If you have been assigned a network you have responsibilities, paying should not be the only one. 2 - There is no problem with email, since ever are made solutions to integrate with emails. There is no need to invent a new protocol. Who has a lot of abuse, invests in integrating these emails. 3 - If you have no ability to manage abuse should not have addressing, leave it to professionals. The internet is critical for everyone, the ability for actors to communicate with each other to respond to abuse must exist and RIPE must ensure that it exists. It’s like the relation with local governments, there is a set of information that has to be kept up to date to avoid problems, in RIPE it must be the same. Sergio From: anti-abuse-wg [mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Fi Shing Sent: 16 de janeiro de 2020 04:55 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") >> Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. I just do not understand how anyone on this list (other than a criminal or a business owner that wants to reduce over heads by abolishing an employee who has to sit and monitor an abuse desk) could be talking about making it easier for abuse to flourish. It is idiotic and is not ad hominem. This list is filled with people who argue for weeks, perhaps months, about the catastrophic world ending dangers of making an admin verify an abuse address ONCE a year .... and then someone says "let's abolish abuse desk all together" and these idiots emerge from the wood work like the termites that they are and there's no resistance? The good news is that nothing talked about on this list is ever implemented, so .. talk away you criminals. --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com> Date: 1/16/20 11:47 am To: "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> In message <20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@ email19.asia.godaddy.com>, "Fi Shing" <phishing(a)storey.xxx> wrote: >That is the most stupid thing i've read on this list. Well, I think you shouldn't be quite so harsh in your judgement. It is not immediately apparent that you have been on the list for all that long. So perhaps you should stick around for awhile longer before making such comments. If you do, I feel sure that there will be any number of stupider things that may come to your attention, including even a few from your's truly. Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. >Which criminal is paying you to say this nonsense, because no ordinary person >that has ever received a spam email would ever say such crap. I would also offer the suggestion that such inartful commentary, being as it is, ad hominem, is not at all likely to advance your agenda. It may have felt good, but I doubt that you have changed a single mind, other than perhaps one or two who will now be persuaded to take the opposing position, relative to whatever it was that you had hoped to achieve. Regards, rfg ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. ******************* ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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@EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
by Marcolla, Sara Veronica 16 Jan '20

16 Jan '20

Hi Volker, Did you realize you just proved Sergio’s point? I do agree, Law Enforcement have a duty in maintaining security. But as it happens that municipalities have a duty in maintaining the roads clean of litter and organize pick-ups for rubbish, this does not exempt all citizens and business to also try not to litter. One role does not exclude the other, and everyone should be compelled to do their bit. Sara From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: 16 January 2020 15:03 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] @EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") Hi Sara, isn't making the world (and the internet) first and foremost a job of law enforcement agencies like the police and Europol? While I agree that everyone has a role to play, crime prevention and protection of the public is part of the LEA job description, right? Civil society entities certainly have a role to play, but it does not help trying to deputize them into a role they do not carry. I disagree that the contract language you quote puts any duty of care regarding the abuse of any networks by third parties on the parties to the agreement. That duty may arise from other sources, but this language is directed at its own information the party provides to RIPE NCC and the cooperation with any audits. Just because it includes the word security does not mean it refers to all thinkable security issues. The ability of any part of the internet infrastructure to curtail abuse that somehow touches services it providers is usually severely curtailed and its ability to review abuse complaints is usually limited to the resources it provides. In many cases, that is simply not enough information to go on when dealing with many common forms of abuse. Best, Volker Am 16.01.2020 um 14:23 schrieb Marcolla, Sara Veronica: Very well put, Sérgio. Thank you for voicing clearly the concern of (at least a part of) the community. We should not forget that, according to the provisions of RIPE NCC audits, “every party that has entered into an agreement with the RIPE NCC is contractually obliged to provide the RIPE NCC with complete, updated and accurate information necessary for the provision of the RIPE NCC services and to assist the RIPE NCC with audits and security checks”. Complete, accurate information goes hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS, spammers, and criminals in general. If the community does not agree that everyone has the right to a safe, spam free, crime free Internet, maybe we have some issue to solve here first. Kind regards, Sara Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) Eisenhowerlaan 73, 2517 KK The Hague, The Netherlands www.europol.europa.eu<http://www.europol.europa.eu> From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net><mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Sérgio Rocha Sent: 16 January 2020 13:38 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") Hi, Agree, This anti-abuse list seems the blocking group to any anit-abuse response measure. It's amazing that nobody cant propose anything without receiving a shower of all sorts of arguments against There is an idea that everyone has to hold, if as a community we cannot organize a policy, one of these days there will be a problem that will make governments take the opportunity to legislate and we will no longer have the free and open internet. There are a feew ideas that is simple to understand: 1 - If you have been assigned a network you have responsibilities, paying should not be the only one. 2 - There is no problem with email, since ever are made solutions to integrate with emails. There is no need to invent a new protocol. Who has a lot of abuse, invests in integrating these emails. 3 - If you have no ability to manage abuse should not have addressing, leave it to professionals. The internet is critical for everyone, the ability for actors to communicate with each other to respond to abuse must exist and RIPE must ensure that it exists. It’s like the relation with local governments, there is a set of information that has to be kept up to date to avoid problems, in RIPE it must be the same. Sergio From: anti-abuse-wg [mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Fi Shing Sent: 16 de janeiro de 2020 04:55 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") >> Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. I just do not understand how anyone on this list (other than a criminal or a business owner that wants to reduce over heads by abolishing an employee who has to sit and monitor an abuse desk) could be talking about making it easier for abuse to flourish. It is idiotic and is not ad hominem. This list is filled with people who argue for weeks, perhaps months, about the catastrophic world ending dangers of making an admin verify an abuse address ONCE a year .... and then someone says "let's abolish abuse desk all together" and these idiots emerge from the wood work like the termites that they are and there's no resistance? The good news is that nothing talked about on this list is ever implemented, so .. talk away you criminals. --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com<mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com>> Date: 1/16/20 11:47 am To: "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>> In message <20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@ email19.asia.godaddy.com<mailto:20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@%0bemail19.asia.godaddy.com>>, "Fi Shing" <phishing(a)storey.xxx<mailto:phishing@storey.xxx>> wrote: >That is the most stupid thing i've read on this list. Well, I think you shouldn't be quite so harsh in your judgement. It is not immediately apparent that you have been on the list for all that long. So perhaps you should stick around for awhile longer before making such comments. If you do, I feel sure that there will be any number of stupider things that may come to your attention, including even a few from your's truly. Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. >Which criminal is paying you to say this nonsense, because no ordinary person >that has ever received a spam email would ever say such crap. I would also offer the suggestion that such inartful commentary, being as it is, ad hominem, is not at all likely to advance your agenda. It may have felt good, but I doubt that you have changed a single mind, other than perhaps one or two who will now be persuaded to take the opposing position, relative to whatever it was that you had hoped to achieve. Regards, rfg ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. ******************* -- Volker A. Greimann ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. *******************

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@EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
by Marcolla, Sara Veronica 16 Jan '20

16 Jan '20

Hi Jordi, Indeed. However, it’s exactly what policies like the abuse –c and this new iteration of your proposal are trying to solve. Apparently, in a sea of denial/counterarguments/gaslighting. I do indeed hope more “security” people from ISPs and CERTs can join the discourse and make it proceed in the right direction. Fingers crossed. Kind regards, Sara M Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) Eisenhowerlaan 73, 2517 KK The Hague, The Netherlands www.europol.europa.eu<http://www.europol.europa.eu> From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg Sent: 16 January 2020 14:54 To: 'anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net' <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] @EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") Hi Sara, While I fully agree with Sergio and yourself, the issue here is that this part of your text “Complete, accurate information goes hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS, spammers, and criminals in general” Is not documented, so not “obvious” (as legal text) to everyone or I’m missing something? Of course, I fail to see that any operator can deny that … but is not in the text. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 16/1/20 14:24, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Marcolla, Sara Veronica" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de Sara.Marcolla(a)europol.europa.eu<mailto:Sara.Marcolla@europol.europa.eu>> escribió: Very well put, Sérgio. Thank you for voicing clearly the concern of (at least a part of) the community. We should not forget that, according to the provisions of RIPE NCC audits, “every party that has entered into an agreement with the RIPE NCC is contractually obliged to provide the RIPE NCC with complete, updated and accurate information necessary for the provision of the RIPE NCC services and to assist the RIPE NCC with audits and security checks”. Complete, accurate information goes hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS, spammers, and criminals in general. If the community does not agree that everyone has the right to a safe, spam free, crime free Internet, maybe we have some issue to solve here first. Kind regards, Sara Europol - O3 European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) Eisenhowerlaan 73, 2517 KK The Hague, The Netherlands www.europol.europa.eu<http://www.europol.europa.eu> From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net>> On Behalf Of Sérgio Rocha Sent: 16 January 2020 13:38 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") Hi, Agree, This anti-abuse list seems the blocking group to any anit-abuse response measure. It's amazing that nobody cant propose anything without receiving a shower of all sorts of arguments against There is an idea that everyone has to hold, if as a community we cannot organize a policy, one of these days there will be a problem that will make governments take the opportunity to legislate and we will no longer have the free and open internet. There are a feew ideas that is simple to understand: 1 - If you have been assigned a network you have responsibilities, paying should not be the only one. 2 - There is no problem with email, since ever are made solutions to integrate with emails. There is no need to invent a new protocol. Who has a lot of abuse, invests in integrating these emails. 3 - If you have no ability to manage abuse should not have addressing, leave it to professionals. The internet is critical for everyone, the ability for actors to communicate with each other to respond to abuse must exist and RIPE must ensure that it exists. It’s like the relation with local governments, there is a set of information that has to be kept up to date to avoid problems, in RIPE it must be the same. Sergio From: anti-abuse-wg [mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Fi Shing Sent: 16 de janeiro de 2020 04:55 To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") >> Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. I just do not understand how anyone on this list (other than a criminal or a business owner that wants to reduce over heads by abolishing an employee who has to sit and monitor an abuse desk) could be talking about making it easier for abuse to flourish. It is idiotic and is not ad hominem. This list is filled with people who argue for weeks, perhaps months, about the catastrophic world ending dangers of making an admin verify an abuse address ONCE a year .... and then someone says "let's abolish abuse desk all together" and these idiots emerge from the wood work like the termites that they are and there's no resistance? The good news is that nothing talked about on this list is ever implemented, so .. talk away you criminals. --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com<mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com>> Date: 1/16/20 11:47 am To: "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net<mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>> In message <20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@ email19.asia.godaddy.com<mailto:20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@%0bemail19.asia.godaddy.com>>, "Fi Shing" <phishing(a)storey.xxx<mailto:phishing@storey.xxx>> wrote: >That is the most stupid thing i've read on this list. Well, I think you shouldn't be quite so harsh in your judgement. It is not immediately apparent that you have been on the list for all that long. So perhaps you should stick around for awhile longer before making such comments. If you do, I feel sure that there will be any number of stupider things that may come to your attention, including even a few from your's truly. Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run. >Which criminal is paying you to say this nonsense, because no ordinary person >that has ever received a spam email would ever say such crap. I would also offer the suggestion that such inartful commentary, being as it is, ad hominem, is not at all likely to advance your agenda. It may have felt good, but I doubt that you have changed a single mind, other than perhaps one or two who will now be persuaded to take the opposing position, relative to whatever it was that you had hoped to achieve. Regards, rfg ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. ******************* ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. *******************

1 0

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
by Leo Vegoda 16 Jan '20

16 Jan '20

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:02 AM Jeffrey Race <jrace(a)post.harvard.edu> wrote: [...] > Aside from the reciprocity issue, it's a basic engineering rule > that systems target their goal only when a corrective > feedback path exists. That feedback path does not need to be a personally written e-mail. Instead, it is possible to use signals like the absence of a reliable reporting mechanism to make decisions about not accepting some or all traffic from an abusing network. My main concern with proposal 2019-04 is that it would make everyone look the same. It then takes time and effort to distinguish the networks that will actually use abuse reports to fix problems from those that won't or just don't have the ability to do so. While I would accept Gert's proposal for making abuse-c an optional attribute, the reason I offered a counter proposal for publishing "a statement to the effect that the network operator does not act on abuse reports" is to add clarity at a high level. In the first case, it avoids wasting resources lodging reports that will be ignored. Secondly, it provides reliable statistical information about the networks whose operators claim to use abuse reports to clean things up. This would provide a metric that could be used both by other network operators to guide operational policies and governments or regulators to set theirs. Finally, we don't yet know what the RIPE Database Requirements TF will recommend. But I think that building a new business process on the existing model for publishing contact information assumes they won't recommend changes. Let's wait until they report before asking the RIPE NCC to build new workflows on a model that the community might want to change. Kind regards, Leo Vegoda

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