May 2017 - anti-abuse-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Recent List Discussion
by Marilson 31 May '17

31 May '17

Brian, Please read this very carefully. There is no place on the World for people like you and your criminal partners, ISP owner. This is a list to discuss how to protect network abuse. Please consider your contributions to the list very carefully. You are not acting in the spirit of the Europe community nor are you providing useful content for good people, for honest people. Neither you nor the other members of the Pro-Abuse Working Group of R.O.T.T.E.N., ex-RIPE, with rare exceptions. I do not wish to have to take further action, ahhh I want to, and this email should be taken as a warning that if you continue to act as you have done until today, that action will be taken. You will have to explain why you are scandalized by words like bullshit - Nazi - criminal, but tolerate Nazi and criminal behavior of customer. Oh yeah, you're not police and customer behavior is not your responsibility, right? Nor reporting crimes is your responsibility, right? Your arguments do not hold. In the face of the gravity of the acts, your arguments are a joke. Surely that will not result in short term moderation of your behavior, but, regrettably, if necessary I will have to look at further steps such as to show that your anti-abuse is a joke of bad taste. Now, prove that you also do not tolerate the contradictory banning me. :))))) Marilson From: Brian Nisbet Sent: Monday, May 29, 2017 10:26 AM To: Marilson Cc: Tobias Knecht Subject: Recent List Discussion Marilson, As I said on list and I have said before there is no place on the mailing list for ad hominem attacks, personal insults or accusations (really of any sort). This is a list to discuss how to deal with network abuse. It is not here for you to act in the way you have acted today. Please consider your contributions to the list very carefully. You are not acting in the spirit of the RIPE community nor are you providing useful content for the other members of the Anti-Abuse Working Group. I do not wish to have to take further action, but this email should be taken as a warning that if your posts continue to have the content they had today, that action will be taken. At the very least that will result in short term moderation of your posts, but, regrettably, if necessary we will have to look at further steps such as removal from the list. Brian Co-Chair, RIPE Anti-Abuse WG

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Marilson 29 May '17

29 May '17

Brian wrote today: > I'm clearly going to have to point out, again, that this list is not the > place for any ad hominem attacks. Third time to be exact. > I know people will probably claim this is censorious or something. It's not censorship. In this particular case it is conspiracy, complicity, gang formation, whatever. 18 months denouncing the same ISP with the same scammer. Some of the complaints were copied to abuse(a)ripe.net in the hope that they would interfere with their client. Nothing was made. Oh yes, the statute does not envisage such an attitude. If this is alleged in any court certainly will be questioned about the company's social responsibility. And having received evidence of illegal activity practiced by a customer for so long, why not investigated or reported... Hide behind a statute to protect your bad customers is a petty attitude, dishonest and greedy. > and without guessing at the motives behind why > someone did something. Guessing??? Before writing such bullshit you should have the decency to look at the evidence of the crimes committed by your client. It's amazing how you all make up facts to disqualify denunciations. Marilson From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Monday, May 29, 2017 9:16 AM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 66, Issue 14 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 13:38:16 +0200 From: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie> To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists Message-ID: <f0254b21-a9b8-13ba-efd2-c357e5cef70c(a)heanet.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Folks, I'm clearly going to have to point out, again, that this list is not the place for any ad hominem attacks. It's that simple. And yes, calling someone a sociopath or a Nazi counts. I know people will probably claim this is censorious or something. It isn't. The discussions and information sharing can take place without these kind of references and without guessing at the motives behind why someone did something. Brian Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 TRUNCATED

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Michele Neylon - Blacknight 29 May '17

29 May '17

Guys Can you please take this offlist? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 29/05/2017, 13:49, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net on behalf of andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: On Mon, 29 May 2017 09:14:50 -0300 "Marilson" <marilson.mapa(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On May 28 Andre wrote: > > I am not a criminal and not a criminal company. So, I do > > not have criminal competitors. > Although this phrase is beyond my capacity for understanding, does not stop you from commenting on it though.... > > Just on a side note, my opinion is that you calling Martin Hetzner a > > Nazi (and a sociopath) is not acceptable behavior. > > I'll explain to you what is not acceptable behavior: no need to explain anything to anyone. we can all just read what you wrote. Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Brian Nisbet 29 May '17

29 May '17

This conversation has long ago lost any utility for the group. Please take your personal conversation off list. Brian Co-Chair, RIPE Anti-Abuse WG Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 ox wrote on 29/05/2017 14:35: > On Mon, 29 May 2017 09:02:14 -0300 > "Marilson" <marilson.mapa(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On May 28 Andre wrote: >>> ox.co.za does not have a website... it also never did not and does >>> not have wordpress, in any version... >> Day 27 your web address *ox.co.za* redirected to the website of your >> anti abuse system: http://ascams.com/spamid/ Now redirects to >> https://www.google.com.br/... What do you want to hide? No one >> accused you of anything. >> > it is just for you (the .br part :) ) > > actually it used to point to spamid.net - then that (spamid.net forwarded > to ascams.com and I just changed it to google.com, just for you :) > > maybe tomorrow it will point somewhere new and exciting *sigh* like a > leaf in the wind, so are the days of our lives, oh, no wait, that was > grains of sands, or no... sadly, I have forgotten what it truly was... > > just asked google, google knows everything! like sands through an > hourglass, so are the days of our lives. contented *sigh* > > Mind you, I just asked google who wrote that and it seem that William J > Bell wrote the soap and may have based it on a song written by queen > drummer Roger Taylor > > this thread is about as useful to anti abuse as all that was :) > >>>> Do you like to prejudge? Buy a crystal ball! >> >>> I do actually own a crystal ball... so, I do not need one, what I >>> need is a user manual... >> >> The user manual of a crystal ball is a dishonest mind. Are you sure >> you need one? >> > okay, I did not know that the manual of a crystal ball was a dishonest > mind, if that is the case mine is working perfectly as all I can see is a crystal ball... > > Good to know either way that it is not broken, I always wondered about that... > > Andre > > >

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Marilson 29 May '17

29 May '17

On May 28 Andre wrote: > I am not a criminal and not a criminal company. So, I do > not have criminal competitors. Although this phrase is beyond my capacity for understanding, I think I should greet you for not fearing unfair competition. > Just on a side note, my opinion is that you calling Martin Hetzner a > Nazi (and a sociopath) is not acceptable behavior. I'll explain to you what is not acceptable behavior: 1- It is you being customer of a provider owner with a professional life history worthy of an arrogant sociopath with the attitudes of a Nazi despot - reread the curriculum I related. 2- It is you acting like some Afrikaners who defended the principles of the National Socialist Party - read Nazism - that gave support to the maintenance of apartheid in your homeland. Heil Hetzner! 3- It is an ISP owner refusing to suspend a reported customer numerous times, for 18 months, with evidence of the practice of crime. 4- It is an ISP owner to allow a victim of his client to spend 18 months denouncing the same scam, the same scammer. > It is hate speech in itself and disrespectful to civil society. A hate speech: If I lived in Germany I would have sued this tramp. From where I am I can only insult and report him to the world. Disrespect to civil society are his relationships with sociopath despots like Putin, are his attacks on freedom of the press, are his pursuits those who fight spammers and give support for reported criminals. Disrespect to civil society it is to defend and hire the services of people who should be arrested. Heil Coetzee! Marilson From: ox Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 2:21 AM To: Marilson Cc: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists On Sat, 27 May 2017 21:26:42 -0300 "Marilson" <marilson.mapa(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > If you continue to call your competitors from criminal companies > someone will call you Pot. :) > No, firstly, there is no competition between lists... All lists have different data and sometimes different priorities and focus. (Did you see the SORBS lists 30 days, recent, all time - this has time focus - some lists adds weight for RIR, some lists focus on actual syndicates, some on actual bot tech, some aggregate bots & syndicates - for example - on your one IP number you may be hosting 900 domains and only one of those belong to a crime syndicate sending spear or to a child pornographer. - if you are on that list - find your criminal - and get rid of them... some lists are rolled by hand, dedicated and with zero (or next to zero) false positives. some lists randomly list ip numbers, etc. a list is a list and the quality of a list depends on the maintenance thereof and the value it ads to society. This value is sometimes displayed in the 'score' or numerical weight attached to programs similar to spamassassin assigned to a list by independent users. Secondly, I am not a criminal and not a criminal company. So, I do not have criminal competitors. Lastly, if there is a list that is listing other lists for no reason and also lists honeynets (traps) and victims - the advantage for doing that is only to criminal enterprise. Just on a side note, my opinion is that you calling Martin Hetzner a Nazi (and a sociopath) is not acceptable behavior. It is hate speech in itself and disrespectful to civil society. Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Marilson 29 May '17

29 May '17

On May 27 I wrote: >> It is interesting to note that from yesterday to today, your website >> went from "high risk", according to Sucuri.net, to "low risk" (what >> nonsense!) and your WorldPress is updated with version 4.7.5. You can >> make the joke you want with the versions, but you ran to update your >> WorldPress, yesterday or today. On May 28 Andre wrote: > ox.co.za does not have a website... it also never did not and does not > have wordpress, in any version... Day 27 your web address *ox.co.za* redirected to the website of your anti abuse system: http://ascams.com/spamid/ Now redirects to https://www.google.com.br/... What do you want to hide? No one accused you of anything. > how is my security score today? > if you do 'research' and you base your 'research' on flawed tools, the > results of your research will be flawed... Why do you insist on judging me? Because I said that my research system is more appropriate than yours ?! I wrote that the Sucuri evaluation it was a NONSENSE. Moreover, Sucuri.net invents infections to sell service. And I have proof of that. I never make statements without proof and I believe that is exactly what bothers everybody so much. Try to find in your crystal ball a better reason to judge me. Your argumentation based on supposition is depressing. >> Do you like to prejudge? Buy a crystal ball! >I do actually own a crystal ball... so, I do not need one, what I need >is a user manual... The user manual of a crystal ball is a dishonest mind. Are you sure you need one? Marilson From: ox Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 2:39 AM To: Marilson Cc: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists On Sat, 27 May 2017 21:42:11 -0300 "Marilson" <marilson.mapa(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I did not know my English is so bad. I do not know spfbl.net and I do > not use information from anti-spam companies because my research is > more appropriate than yours. You are rambling and have a bad habit of > judging who you do not know. Information about your WordPress > outdated I got into > > https://sitecheck.sucuri.net/results/ox.co.za > > It is interesting to note that from yesterday to today, your website > went from "high risk", according to Sucuri.net, to "low risk" (what > nonsense!) and your WorldPress is updated with version 4.7.5. You can > make the joke you want with the versions, but you ran to update your > WorldPress, yesterday or today. > ox.co.za does not have a website... it also never did not and does not have wordpress, in any version... how is my security score today? ooh, I see no web firewall, wonder what the website looks like... if you do 'research' and you base your 'research' on flawed tools, the results of your research will be flawed... then, I can hint to you that whatever sucuri.net may have checked is probably not even wordpress at all, never mind at what version :) > Do you like to prejudge? Buy a crystal ball! > I do actually own a crystal ball... so, I do not need one, what I need is a user manual... Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Marilson 29 May '17

29 May '17

On May 26 ox wrote: > ROFLMAO you are so funny! sending from an @gmail.com email address :) (the pot & kettle thing) I'm glad you're having fun, after all you're always dissatisfied with the acceptance of your arguments... But do not worry! You will never be persona non grata to the group as I am. ;) For your enjoyment I will improve the joke I told you about: (because I am Google/Hetzner.de) 1- In 2013 Martin Hetzner blocked the blog of a customer, an Estonian anti-spam activist (Tonu Samuel) because he reported an alleged spammer (Silver Teede). An Estonian Court awarded Samuel damages for the loss of his servers. 2- On Aug 2014, in the service of a Putin repressive organ, Roskomnadzor, blocked the online newspaper Glavcom.ua to prevent him from publishing news about the federalization of Siberia. There was so much repercussion that apologized but Glavcom changed provider. Martin Hetzner dared to confront freedom of the press for Putin. 3- On Jan 2016, Hetzner blocked the St. Petersburg site of Novaya Gazeta, the leading oppositional, non-governmental newspaper in Russia. It was another act of repression of freedom of the press in favor of his idol, the psychopath Putin. 4- And refuses to suspend criminal customers and spammers. And he pursues those who denounce as he did with Tonu Samuel (item 1 above). 5- This sociopath, Mr. Martin Hetzner, has been trying, since 2015, to hide his criminal customer, but he has failed. Perhaps this incompetence explain your need to have illicit activities to not go bankrupt. But what would explain his professional life story? 6- This sociopath, owner of hetzner.de, is determined to prove that he is above the laws and regulations. I have denounced your customer, Marcos Antonio da Hora Silva, a criminal and hated Brazilian spammer, since 2015, with evidence of criminal activity. (From my complaint of January 9, 2017) @Andre, about the "pot-kettle situation" you are partially correct. After reporting for the third time the same scammer to the same ISP, I practice spam. I copy my complaint to everyone: for all the providers involved, main medias, institutions that fight spam, Anonymous, RIR and police organs to combat crime on the Internet (4dp.dig.deic(a)policiacivil.sp.gov.br in my Sao Paulo city). I accept your insult (pot-kettle) as a "spammer" to combat spammer and criminal ISPs. But do not confuse me with your Nazi colleagues. My humanist education does not allow me to act like a sociopath, irritating and extorting people. Denouncing is my duty as a citizen. If you continue to call your competitors from criminal companies someone will call you Pot. :) Marilson From: ox Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 6:38 AM To: Marilson Cc: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists On Fri, 26 May 2017 05:24:51 -0300 "Marilson" <marilson.mapa(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > look at the headers of this email, check my hetzner.de IP number > > and then do the same for other reporting systems... > OMG, you are using Hetzner.de as a sender! An ISP with a dirty > history of repression of press freedom and defense of spammers and > arrogant political psychopaths. > ROFLMAO you are so funny! sending from an @gmail.com email address :) (the pot & kettle thing) Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Marilson 28 May '17

28 May '17

On May 26 Andre wrote: > (you can also change your own, if you like - you can even install a plugin called nivo slider, with an outdated version > and see what bots come around whahahaha) Many thanks for your tip but I do not have that kind of problem. I do not have a website and I do not need email marketing. In the very small city that I live in, with 12 million inhabitants (more than 21 million in the Metropolitan Region of Sao Paulo), my professional contact is always with the owner of the company, never with employees. And they've known me since the 80's and they know what I do and how I do. > Anyway - just so I understand you correctly, the reason that this > http://spfbl.net/en/dnsbl/ > crowd lists IPs has NOTHING to do with actual abuse - but either to do with the fact that you are Google/Hetzner.de or because they collect and believe > published version numbers? or they "think" you may be doing abuse? I did not know my English is so bad. I do not know spfbl.net and I do not use information from anti-spam companies because my research is more appropriate than yours. You are rambling and have a bad habit of judging who you do not know. Information about your WordPress outdated I got into https://sitecheck.sucuri.net/results/ox.co.za It is interesting to note that from yesterday to today, your website went from "high risk", according to Sucuri.net, to "low risk" (what nonsense!) and your WorldPress is updated with version 4.7.5. You can make the joke you want with the versions, but you ran to update your WorldPress, yesterday or today. About virtual or real honeynets, make contact WITH SPFBL.NET and help them! They are your colleagues. Do you like to prejudge? Buy a crystal ball! Marilson From: ox Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 7:52 AM To: Marilson Cc: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists On Fri, 26 May 2017 05:24:51 -0300 "Marilson" <marilson.mapa(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > look at the headers of this email, check my hetzner.de IP number > > and then do the same for other reporting systems... > BTW, your WordPress is outdated (under 4.7.5). Website outdated means > "high risk" and can be listed by mistake. ;) > > About virtual or real honeynets, make contact and help them! > just in case you are correct and there are people that believe version info on scams websites :) - i have changed the version info (you can also change your own, if you like - you can even install a plugin called nivo slider, with an outdated version - and see what bots come around whahahaha) About helping honeynets/traps/scamtraps: Anyway - just so I understand you correctly, the reason that this http://spfbl.net/en/dnsbl/ crowd lists IPs has NOTHING to do with actual abuse - but either to do with the fact that you are Google/Hetzner.de or because they collect and believe published version numbers? or they "think" you may be doing abuse? This is hard to believe? are you sure? Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Marilson 26 May '17

26 May '17

> look at the headers of this email, check my hetzner.de IP number and then do the same for other reporting systems... OMG, you are using Hetzner.de as a sender! An ISP with a dirty history of repression of press freedom and defense of spammers and arrogant political psychopaths. Using Hetzner's IP is a risk, for sure. Your IP is clean... NOW! You're right. You are involved with criminal enterprise, but you are pointing in the wrong direction. BTW, your WordPress is outdated (under 4.7.5). Website outdated means "high risk" and can be listed by mistake. ;) About virtual or real honeynets, make contact and help them! Marilson From: ox Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 1:57 AM To: Marilson Cc: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists On Fri, 26 May 2017 01:14:24 -0300 "Marilson" <marilson.mapa(a)gmail.com> wrote: > The SPFBL.net is not a criminal enterprise. It's just another > competitor of you and it's welcome considering the criminal attitudes > of companies like Spamcop and Netcraft. > Weird that they would suddenly list me for abuse, whereas there has been no abuse... And, after checking, they are listing many honeynets, reporting systems and others, also... look at the headers of this email, check my hetzner.de IP number and then do the same for other reporting systems... all listed. coincidence? No. - Criminal Enterprise or criminals in their enterprise or some other low life scummy type behavior... > http://www.nic.br/videos/ver/gter-42-spfbl-aplicacao-p2p-para-prevencao-de-… > > The SPFBL.net aims to be a collaborative system to combat spam. A > cooperative system: users share alerts against spammers through a > reputation mechanism. I hope they succeed because the Brazilian > population is tired of being the victim of damn ISPs. But take care, > consider this with a grain of salt, after all they are... Brazilians. > > Marilson > > From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 7:00 AM > To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 66, Issue 8 > > Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to > anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. fake abuse lists (ox) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 07:20:58 +0200 > From: ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> > To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists > Message-ID: <mailman.2.1495706402.1949.anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Hello, > > Can anyone share any experiences with: http://spfbl.net/en/dnsbl/ > > It seems that they list servers that are used to file complaints with > Spamcop and other blacklists - as "spam" servers... > > They do not de-list these servers, ever, and it seems like a criminal > enterprise or services designed to 'punish' or list complainants or > victims? > > there are of course other 'fake' / non maintained and worthless > blacklists, like abuse-att.net etc etc. but these generally do not go > out of their way to punish victims... > > What is the best way to fight criminal enterprises that enter data > streams and 'hide' / market etc as ethical service providers? > > Andre > > > > End of anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 66, Issue 8 > ********************************************

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists
by Marilson 26 May '17

26 May '17

The SPFBL.net is not a criminal enterprise. It's just another competitor of you and it's welcome considering the criminal attitudes of companies like Spamcop and Netcraft. http://www.nic.br/videos/ver/gter-42-spfbl-aplicacao-p2p-para-prevencao-de-… The SPFBL.net aims to be a collaborative system to combat spam. A cooperative system: users share alerts against spammers through a reputation mechanism. I hope they succeed because the Brazilian population is tired of being the victim of damn ISPs. But take care, consider this with a grain of salt, after all they are... Brazilians. Marilson From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 7:00 AM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 66, Issue 8 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. fake abuse lists (ox) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 07:20:58 +0200 From: ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] fake abuse lists Message-ID: <mailman.2.1495706402.1949.anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello, Can anyone share any experiences with: http://spfbl.net/en/dnsbl/ It seems that they list servers that are used to file complaints with Spamcop and other blacklists - as "spam" servers... They do not de-list these servers, ever, and it seems like a criminal enterprise or services designed to 'punish' or list complainants or victims? there are of course other 'fake' / non maintained and worthless blacklists, like abuse-att.net etc etc. but these generally do not go out of their way to punish victims... What is the best way to fight criminal enterprises that enter data streams and 'hide' / market etc as ethical service providers? Andre End of anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 66, Issue 8 ********************************************

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