2007-01 New Policy Proposal (Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC)
PDP Number: 2007-01 Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC Dear Colleagues A new RIPE Policy Proposal has been made and is now available for discussion. This proposal states that a contractual relationship between an End User and the RIPE NCC must be established before the End User receives Internet number resources (Autonomous System (AS) Number, Provider Independent (PI) IPv4 and IPv6 Internet Exchange Point (IXP) and anycasting assignments) directly from the RIPE NCC. It also states that the text in the policy should mention more explicitly that PI assignments can't be sub-assigned. You can find the full proposal at: http://ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2007-01.html We encourage you to review this proposal and send your comments to <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> before 17 May 2007. Regards Filiz Yilmaz RIPE NCC Policy Development Officer
Hi All, I object this proposal. You know, in ex-USSR and especially Asian countries there is a VERY difficult (for small companies and NGOs that are main PI holders - sometime impossible at all) to have contracts and payments outside country. Instead of that, I propose just to change the billing scheme of LIRs and score PI and ASN by a very small rate (i.e. 1 scoring unit) next years after registration. This will have LIRs to maintain agreements with end-users and have end-users to return unused PI/ASN to RIPE. In this case, all contracts and money transfers will be domestic for PI/ASN holders. Filiz Yilmaz wrote:
PDP Number: 2007-01 Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC
Dear Colleagues
A new RIPE Policy Proposal has been made and is now available for discussion.
This proposal states that a contractual relationship between an End User and the RIPE NCC must be established before the End User receives Internet number resources (Autonomous System (AS) Number, Provider Independent (PI) IPv4 and IPv6 Internet Exchange Point (IXP) and anycasting assignments) directly from the RIPE NCC. It also states that the text in the policy should mention more explicitly that PI assignments can't be sub-assigned.
You can find the full proposal at:
http://ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2007-01.html
We encourage you to review this proposal and send your comments to <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> before 17 May 2007.
Regards
Filiz Yilmaz RIPE NCC Policy Development Officer
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
Max, On Apr 19, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Max Tulyev wrote:
I object this proposal.
You know, in ex-USSR and especially Asian countries there is a VERY difficult (for small companies and NGOs that are main PI holders - sometime impossible at all) to have contracts and payments outside country.
This is a very real issue and must be addressed. However...
Instead of that, I propose just to change the billing scheme of LIRs and score PI and ASN by a very small rate (i.e. 1 scoring unit) next years after registration.
This will have LIRs to maintain agreements with end-users and have end-users to return unused PI/ASN to RIPE. In this case, all contracts and money transfers will be domestic for PI/ASN holders.
... your suggestion does not resolve the issue of maintaining a link between the NCC and the resource holder when the LIR is closed for non-payment. I'm not sure how many LIRs that have requested PI or ASN assignments for customers have been closed for non-payment. If the number is significant then a another solution is needed while still addressing the legitimate issue you've raised about issues with international contracts. Regards, -- Leo Vegoda IANA Numbers Liaison
Leo Vegoda wrote:
This will have LIRs to maintain agreements with end-users and have end-users to return unused PI/ASN to RIPE. In this case, all contracts and money transfers will be domestic for PI/ASN holders.
... your suggestion does not resolve the issue of maintaining a link between the NCC and the resource holder when the LIR is closed for non-payment. I'm not sure how many LIRs that have requested PI or ASN assignments for customers have been closed for non-payment. If the number is significant then a another solution is needed while still addressing the legitimate issue you've raised about issues with international contracts.
This solution can be the possibility to move PI from one LIR to another in this case. -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
On Apr 20, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Max Tulyev wrote:
Leo Vegoda wrote:
This will have LIRs to maintain agreements with end-users and have end-users to return unused PI/ASN to RIPE. In this case, all contracts and money transfers will be domestic for PI/ASN holders.
... your suggestion does not resolve the issue of maintaining a link between the NCC and the resource holder when the LIR is closed for non-payment. I'm not sure how many LIRs that have requested PI or ASN assignments for customers have been closed for non-payment. If the number is significant then a another solution is needed while still addressing the legitimate issue you've raised about issues with international contracts.
This solution can be the possibility to move PI from one LIR to another in this case.
Which LIR? The LIR stopped paying bills and doesn't have staff any more. There is no-one to confirm the orderly transfer of responsibility for the resources. The string connecting the resource holders to the RIPE NCC snapped. The point at which a new LIR pops up and claims responsibility for the resources is the ideal moment to hijack them. I am not sure how serious a problem this is as I do not know the rate of churn for LIRs in countries for which you have expressed concerns. It could be that it is a very small risk affecting a tiny number of registrations per year. On the other hand, it could be a more significant problem. If the RIPE NCC could provide statistics for LIR churn, particularly LIRs that have requested PI assignments or ASNs for customers, that would be very helpful. Regards, -- Leo Vegoda IANA Numbers Liaison
Leo Vegoda wrote:
Which LIR? The LIR stopped paying bills and doesn't have staff any more. There is no-one to confirm the orderly transfer of responsibility for the resources. The string connecting the resource holders to the RIPE NCC snapped. The point at which a new LIR pops up and claims responsibility for the resources is the ideal moment to hijack them.
We all believe RIPE DB data is correct ;) RIPE NCC can contact them and say "Bad thing happened. You should find a new LIR within [period of time]. Here is a list of LIRs in your region:". I also believe it is a very rare case and can be processed manually. -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
Hi Max, On 4/20/07, Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> wrote:
Leo Vegoda wrote:
Which LIR? The LIR stopped paying bills and doesn't have staff any more. There is no-one to confirm the orderly transfer of responsibility for the resources. The string connecting the resource holders to the RIPE NCC snapped. The point at which a new LIR pops up and claims responsibility for the resources is the ideal moment to hijack them.
We all believe RIPE DB data is correct ;)
this policy seems to be aimed at making it more correct, which seems to be a good thing IMO. I support this policy.
RIPE NCC can contact them and say "Bad thing happened. You should find a new LIR within [period of time]. Here is a list of LIRs in your region:".
Why does an LIR need to be involved? As far as payment, it seems that PayPal or it's brethren could be used. I'd be comfortable leaving contract implementation details to NCC staff. Sascha, I think your plan might be too complex. -- Cheers, McTim $ whois -h whois.afrinic.net mctim
McTim wrote:
RIPE NCC can contact them and say "Bad thing happened. You should find a new LIR within [period of time]. Here is a list of LIRs in your region:".
Why does an LIR need to be involved? As far as payment, it seems that PayPal or it's brethren could be used. I'd be comfortable leaving contract implementation details to NCC staff.
I know about PayPal, CC, Webmoney etc. Payments can be easy made through this methods. But it is often ILLEGALLY to have foreign contracts and such kind of payments as I said. Do you really want RIPE to force us violate local laws? -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
Hi Max, On 4/21/07, Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> wrote: <snip>
But it is often ILLEGALLY to have foreign contracts and such kind of payments as I said. Do you really want RIPE to force us violate local laws?
Did I say anything to that effect? How are LIR's able to do it?? I assume that non-LIR's could do the same. I understand it is more difficult to do in Russia, but not impossible. -- Cheers, McTim $ whois -h whois.afrinic.net mctim
Hi, It is VERY difficult even for large companies. A lot of LIRs still pay illegally (here, not illegally for RIPE). Thanks RIPE NCC, they changed documents for Russian registries to make payments easy (there is Russian translation, Russian account papers etc) and now situation is being changed for Ukraine. But AFAIK NOTHING changed in Belarus or Uzbekistan for example (forget for foreign contracts here if you are not A Very VIP Person). McTim wrote:
Hi Max,
On 4/21/07, Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> wrote:
<snip>
But it is often ILLEGALLY to have foreign contracts and such kind of payments as I said. Do you really want RIPE to force us violate local laws?
Did I say anything to that effect? How are LIR's able to do it?? I assume that non-LIR's could do the same. I understand it is more difficult to do in Russia, but not impossible.
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
On Apr 21, 2007, at 2:08 AM, McTim wrote:
Which LIR? The LIR stopped paying bills and doesn't have staff any more. There is no-one to confirm the orderly transfer of responsibility for the resources. The string connecting the resource holders to the RIPE NCC snapped. The point at which a new LIR pops up and claims responsibility for the resources is the ideal moment to hijack them.
We all believe RIPE DB data is correct ;)
this policy seems to be aimed at making it more correct, which seems to be a good thing IMO. I support this policy.
Which leads to another question... how long should be allowed between reconfirming or renewing the contact information held by the RIPE NCC in its private database of customers and/or the RIPE database? Regards, -- Leo Vegoda IANA Numbers Liaison
Dear Leo, Listed below is the number of LIRs closed due to non-payment since 2005: Year 2005 total: 210 Year 2006 total: 195 Year 2007 total (to date): 122 The top three countries in terms of LIRs closed due to non-payment are: 2005: UK: 32, RU: 29, DE: 18 2006: UK: 48, RU: 33, DE: 11 2007 (to date): RU: 28, UK: 21, NL: 7 Note that as of 31 March 2007, RU (701), UK (571) and DE (537) are the top three countries in our region in terms of total number of members. Total membership as of 31 March 2007 is 4847. Regards, Flor de Maria Paredes Mattos RS Manager RIPE NCC Leo Vegoda wrote:
On Apr 20, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Max Tulyev wrote:
Leo Vegoda wrote:
This will have LIRs to maintain agreements with end-users and have end-users to return unused PI/ASN to RIPE. In this case, all contracts and money transfers will be domestic for PI/ASN holders.
... your suggestion does not resolve the issue of maintaining a link between the NCC and the resource holder when the LIR is closed for non-payment. I'm not sure how many LIRs that have requested PI or ASN assignments for customers have been closed for non-payment. If the number is significant then a another solution is needed while still addressing the legitimate issue you've raised about issues with international contracts.
This solution can be the possibility to move PI from one LIR to another in this case.
Which LIR? The LIR stopped paying bills and doesn't have staff any more. There is no-one to confirm the orderly transfer of responsibility for the resources. The string connecting the resource holders to the RIPE NCC snapped. The point at which a new LIR pops up and claims responsibility for the resources is the ideal moment to hijack them.
I am not sure how serious a problem this is as I do not know the rate of churn for LIRs in countries for which you have expressed concerns. It could be that it is a very small risk affecting a tiny number of registrations per year. On the other hand, it could be a more significant problem.
If the RIPE NCC could provide statistics for LIR churn, particularly LIRs that have requested PI assignments or ASNs for customers, that would be very helpful.
Regards,
--Leo Vegoda IANA Numbers Liaison
* Filiz Yilmaz:
You can find the full proposal at:
The section which intends to clarify the role of sub-assignments does not deal with early-registration address space.
[ reply distribution addresses trimmed - WW ] Florian Weimer wrote:
* Filiz Yilmaz:
You can find the full proposal at:
The section which intends to clarify the role of sub-assignments does not deal with early-registration address space.
Could or should it do that? As I read it, it also does not (easily) apply to PI assignments made before the effective date of this policy - if it gets consensus at all. My feeling is (ah address council hat put on :-) ) that it would need a Global Policy exercise (ICANN/ASO speak) to get a hold on legacy stuff. Or at least a globally coordinated set of regional policies. Wilfried.
Filiz Yilmaz wrote:
PDP Number: 2007-01 Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC [...] You can find the full proposal at:
http://ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2007-01.html
We encourage you to review this proposal and send your comments to <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> before 17 May 2007.
After reading it for the 1st time, and not spending too much time on playing sandbox to understand (most of) the effects, I have one quick comment: "This proposal does not discuss any particular details of the contract that should be set up between the End User and the RIPE NCC." I cannot agree with that statement, because the overall terms and (financial) conditions of such a contract will (and should) have some influence on the future status of LIRs and the RIPE NCC. "The RIPE NCC Executive Board will decide on *the details* of this contract." [emphasis added by me] Indeed, but the general blueprint of such a contract needs to be discussed in the context of this proposal. Including the (potentially) voting rights associated with such a contract.
Regards
Filiz Yilmaz RIPE NCC Policy Development Officer
In general, I somewhat like the idea behind this proposal. Regards, Wilfried.
Hay, Filiz Yilmaz schrieb:
PDP Number: 2007-01 Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC
Dear Colleagues
A new RIPE Policy Proposal has been made and is now available for discussion. [...]
for the time being i DO NOT support the proposal as it is. Reasons: - The proposal lacks some nescessary (IMHO) details about the contract ect. (Wilfried pointed that out to some extent) I won't sing off on such a policy change without a descent view onto what it will mean in the reality if it concerns contractual issues. Vague policies are fine for technical stuff :) but not when it comes to contracts. - Explore other (LIR based?) options? While i'm perfectly fine with some kind of contractual relationship that allows the RIPE NCC (or a LIR?) to reclaim PI space/AS Numbers/etc. (for whatever reason), we don't really need to just copy the ARIN policy here, you know. With the actual situation in Russia - probably otherwhere too, it might make more sense to look into another concept, probably somehow like DENIC (.de ccTLD) handles it for Domains here (someone correct me if i talk rubbish here): (1) Contractual relationship is basically with the RIPE NCC, but maintained by a (local?) LIR under normal circumstances (2) Requests and payments are done through a LIR much like it is now (3) If the LIR is shut down the PI/AS/etc. customers get a - whatever - 90day notice from RIPE NCC to 'attach' their object to another LIR of their liking, or continue to pay RIPE directly (this might probably be way more expensive to make it unlikely to happen?). If the customer doesn't do that, RIPE NCC can revoke the assignment(s) after the grace period. (4) If the customer is not paying or not reachable, the LIR can "hand back" the assignment(s) to the RIPE NCC (==> basically continue with(3)) do i make any sense? :-) Note: this is a "2 o'clock in the morning idea" and not a fully fledged proposal of course. P.S.: The "no [sub-|re-]assignment clarification" is ok for me. -- ======================================================================== = Sascha Lenz SLZ-RIPE slz@baycix.de = = Network Operations = = BayCIX GmbH, Landshut * PGP public Key on demand * = ========================================================================
Hi, On Sat, Apr 21, 2007 at 02:14:23AM +0200, Sascha Lenz wrote:
With the actual situation in Russia - probably otherwhere too, it might make more sense to look into another concept, probably somehow like DENIC (.de ccTLD) handles it for Domains here (someone correct me if i talk rubbish here):
I think this is a good approach, and should work for all countries where LIRs can find a way to make a contract with the RIPE NCC. Max, is that something that would work in your environment? I don't know the legal obstacles in Russia, Ukraine, etc. well enough to be sure it would work out. Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, Domestic contracts (LIR-User) is much simple (and in some not so rare cases - is only way) than international (RIPE NCC-User) one. RIPE NCC did a lot of things in Russia to make special Russian contract, and it really works now here. But there is still a lot of problems to sign and legally use of this contract because of local laws. In Ukraine situation is worse: at first, because of laws are more ugly, at second, there is no local Ukrainian contract. In fact, ALL of Ukrainian RIPE NCC members signed standard (unchanged) service agreement acts ILLEGALLY at Ukrainian side. Unable to pay money to RIPE NCC legally is most harmless consequence of it. A month ago Ukrainian local work group is started to make Ukrainian local contract like in Russia. But I didn't hear anything about this for other ex-USSR countries with similar laws: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Georgia and so on. A week ago I requested from RIPE NCC Russian agreement for our registry based in Ukraine. It fits here as mostly similar legal demand and Russian language documents are still often accepted in Ukraine. But I got reply "wait for special Ukrainian agreement" from RIPE NCC. Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Sat, Apr 21, 2007 at 02:14:23AM +0200, Sascha Lenz wrote:
With the actual situation in Russia - probably otherwhere too, it might make more sense to look into another concept, probably somehow like DENIC (.de ccTLD) handles it for Domains here (someone correct me if i talk rubbish here):
I think this is a good approach, and should work for all countries where LIRs can find a way to make a contract with the RIPE NCC.
Max, is that something that would work in your environment? I don't know the legal obstacles in Russia, Ukraine, etc. well enough to be sure it would work out.
Gert Doering -- APWG chair
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
participants (9)
-
Filiz Yilmaz -
Flor Paredes -
Florian Weimer -
Gert Doering -
Leo Vegoda -
Max Tulyev -
McTim -
Sascha Lenz -
Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet