brian,

...

i support this proposal, but would oppose it in the anti-abuse wg. I have to ask, out of personal interest and with no hats on at all, why?

i am only in mild support of it. i am in strong unsupport of everything being recast as an abuse and prosecuted as such. We are not the net police and should resist inclinations to be come such. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! randy

Mmmm ... often those conversations are really difficult to catch for non-native English speakers. And just in case ... I was not there during the Inquisition, neither, of course, agree which all the barbarities done at that time. Also don't agree that any RIR should be the police, is only about the community setting up our own rules and avoiding governments enforcing that for us. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 1/11/19 11:36, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> escribió: Randy, > -----Original Message----- > From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> > Sent: Friday 1 November 2019 10:04 > To: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> > Cc: Petrit Hasani <phasani@ripe.net>; address-policy-wg@ripe.net > Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2019-08 New Policy Proposal (RPKI ROAs for > Unallocated and Unassigned RIPE NCC Address Space) to be discussed on > Routing Working Group Mailing List > > brian, > > >> i support this proposal, but would oppose it in the anti-abuse wg. > > I have to ask, out of personal interest and with no hats on at all, > > why? > > i am only in mild support of it. i am in strong unsupport of everything being > recast as an abuse and prosecuted as such. We are not the net police and > should resist inclinations to be come such. I would, perhaps unsurprisingly, argue that putting a proposal through AA-WG doesn't mean the community is trying to police things, rather the proposer feels that it is network abuse they are trying to stop, but that is perhaps a point better discussed over a beverage or perhaps a jam doughnut at RIPE 80. Thank you for explaining, much appreciated. > Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! But we... er... I mean they have such comfy chairs! Brian Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

I guess I don't have sufficient time to see enough films of TV shows ... Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 1/11/19 11:52, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> escribió: Jordi, Ah, the Spanish Inquisition reference is a Month Python reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanish_Inquisition_(Monty_Python) Brian Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > -----Original Message----- > From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> > Sent: Friday 1 November 2019 10:44 > To: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie>; Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> > Cc: address-policy-wg@ripe.net > Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2019-08 New Policy Proposal (RPKI ROAs for > Unallocated and Unassigned RIPE NCC Address Space) to be discussed on > Routing Working Group Mailing List > > Mmmm ... often those conversations are really difficult to catch for non- > native English speakers. > > And just in case ... I was not there during the Inquisition, neither, of course, > agree which all the barbarities done at that time. > > Also don't agree that any RIR should be the police, is only about the > community setting up our own rules and avoiding governments enforcing > that for us. > > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet > > > > El 1/11/19 11:36, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <address- > policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> > escribió: > > Randy, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> > > Sent: Friday 1 November 2019 10:04 > > To: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> > > Cc: Petrit Hasani <phasani@ripe.net>; address-policy-wg@ripe.net > > Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2019-08 New Policy Proposal (RPKI ROAs > for > > Unallocated and Unassigned RIPE NCC Address Space) to be discussed on > > Routing Working Group Mailing List > > > > brian, > > > > >> i support this proposal, but would oppose it in the anti-abuse wg. > > > I have to ask, out of personal interest and with no hats on at all, > > > why? > > > > i am only in mild support of it. i am in strong unsupport of everything > being > > recast as an abuse and prosecuted as such. We are not the net police > and > > should resist inclinations to be come such. > > I would, perhaps unsurprisingly, argue that putting a proposal through AA- > WG doesn't mean the community is trying to police things, rather the > proposer feels that it is network abuse they are trying to stop, but that is > perhaps a point better discussed over a beverage or perhaps a jam doughnut > at RIPE 80. > > Thank you for explaining, much appreciated. > > > Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! > > But we... er... I mean they have such comfy chairs! > > Brian > > Brian Nisbet > Service Operations Manager > HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network > 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland > +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie > Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a > criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, > even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to > inform about this communication and delete it. > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

Hi Nick, My point was also a general observation (not something against any specific participant, just taking advantage of this specific example, as a mention to "Spanish inquisition" and "routing police" could be interpreted in between lines as something different, even if not intended). There are many non-native English speakers in the RIR communities (at it happens in IETF, ICANN, etc.), however, often the native ones forget about that and keep using those jargons. Doing so, you as asking the non-native speakers to spend 4-5 more times to read each message, to google around, looking at Wikipedia, youtube, etc. Note that I fully understand that for those that are native-speakers, you are just using your natural language and expression, but being considerate to others may be much easier for you than for non-native to waste their time. Should then we, non-native speakers, start using in the list our own languages and expressions that even using google translator, you will not catch? Are we discriminating part of the community otherwise? Clearly, this doesn't belong to this thread/WG, but it doesn't help to the community to use those expressions. Some folks go away from the thread doing so, instead of facilitating participation, or if I can say, even inclusiveness. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 1/11/19 12:04, "Nick Hilliard" <nick@foobar.org> escribió: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg wrote on 01/11/2019 10:52: > I guess I don't have sufficient time to see enough films of TV shows ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAxkcPoLYcQ It's a metaphor about how we start off with incremental additions that seem innocent, but they end up with an appalling outcome. See also: "boiling the frog" and "creeping featuritis". Nick ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

Hi Jim, Despite how many years I've been participating, I still have (sometimes) difficulties, and often talking with other non-native English speakers they tell me the same. We know that not everybody is happy to express that in a list. I'm not convinced "common-sense" is such simple thing! Otherwise, either I'm really stupid, or I should have cached the reference in a more humoristic way. I don't think we can compare our technical jargon with such kind of references, especially because not everybody (as it is my case) follows "Monty Python, Star Wars, Star Trek, H2G2, etc.". Precisely because I often heard those references, I decided today, to ask for a clarification! I've missed a lot of fun, I guess! I didn't respond to the first email because, sometimes, when a thread is moving fast in the list, you just respond to the last email that you read. Not sure if that's a broken way, but I do sometimes. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 1/11/19 13:27, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Jim Reid" <address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de jim@rfc1035.com> escribió: > On 1 Nov 2019, at 11:14, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> wrote: > > My point was also a general observation (not something against any specific participant, just taking advantage of this specific example, as a mention to "Spanish inquisition" and "routing police" could be interpreted in between lines as something different, even if not intended). Jordi, your comment is a reasonable one. But it misses the point. In this case, your common sense should have told you the earlier remark wasn't a literal reference to the Spanish Inquisition. The RIPE/tech community habitually uses references to a variety of idioms from popular culture in films, TV, books and songs. Using catchphrases from Monty Python, Star Wars, Star Trek, H2G2, etc. are very common. That's gone on for decades. These phrases might well confuse non-native English speakers at first. Or (say) an English speaker who haven't seen Star Wars. However people soon pick up these references, just like we all learn the industry jargon -- route flapping, prefix filtering, trust anchors, ROA, PI address space, etc -- that probably doesn't translate well into other languages. That sort of understanding becomes almost automatic for those who have been active in these communities for a while. To be honest Jordi, I'm surprised you said you were confused. Since you've been coming to RIPE/IETF/ICANN meetings for longer than I can remember, this couldn't possibly have been the first time you've come across a Monty Python reference. And if you were confused, you could have said so at the time and asked the original poster to explain. I think that's a far better way to handle things. It's certainly far more productive than starting this meta-discussion or telling others how they should express themselves. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

Diversity? (in copy) El 1/11/19 13:50, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Brian Nisbet" <address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> escribió: I'm sure it will shock absolutely nobody if I say that I think this conversation is very important. Maybe AP-WG isn't the best place, but I'm not sure where is? I think it is useful to all of us to realise that our cultural references are not everyone else's, because of language or country or age or one of many other things. We can no longer just assume a shared set of references and we should look to inform (and hopefully share the awesomeness that is Monthy Python, for instance) and expand. I mean, how long will it be before WG Chairs start to talk about yeeting proposals into or out of WGs? 😊 I'm not, for one second, suggesting people shouldn't use references, I use them all the time, but I am saying that those who use them should be understanding when others don't get them. Thanks, Brian Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > -----Original Message----- > From: address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf > Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg > Sent: Friday 1 November 2019 12:38 > To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> > Cc: RIPE Address Policy WG List <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> > Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] cultural idioms in RIPE discussions > > Hi Jim, > > Despite how many years I've been participating, I still have (sometimes) > difficulties, and often talking with other non-native English speakers they tell > me the same. We know that not everybody is happy to express that in a list. > > I'm not convinced "common-sense" is such simple thing! Otherwise, either > I'm really stupid, or I should have cached the reference in a more humoristic > way. > > I don't think we can compare our technical jargon with such kind of > references, especially because not everybody (as it is my case) follows > "Monty Python, Star Wars, Star Trek, H2G2, etc.". Precisely because I often > heard those references, I decided today, to ask for a clarification! I've missed > a lot of fun, I guess! > > I didn't respond to the first email because, sometimes, when a thread is > moving fast in the list, you just respond to the last email that you read. Not > sure if that's a broken way, but I do sometimes. > > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet > > > > El 1/11/19 13:27, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Jim Reid" <address- > policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de jim@rfc1035.com> escribió: > > > > > On 1 Nov 2019, at 11:14, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg > <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> wrote: > > > > My point was also a general observation (not something against any > specific participant, just taking advantage of this specific example, as a > mention to "Spanish inquisition" and "routing police" could be interpreted in > between lines as something different, even if not intended). > > Jordi, your comment is a reasonable one. But it misses the point. In this > case, your common sense should have told you the earlier remark wasn't a > literal reference to the Spanish Inquisition. > > The RIPE/tech community habitually uses references to a variety of idioms > from popular culture in films, TV, books and songs. Using catchphrases from > Monty Python, Star Wars, Star Trek, H2G2, etc. are very common. That's > gone on for decades. These phrases might well confuse non-native English > speakers at first. Or (say) an English speaker who haven't seen Star Wars. > However people soon pick up these references, just like we all learn the > industry jargon -- route flapping, prefix filtering, trust anchors, ROA, PI > address space, etc -- that probably doesn't translate well into other > languages. That sort of understanding becomes almost automatic for those > who have been active in these communities for a while. > > To be honest Jordi, I'm surprised you said you were confused. Since you've > been coming to RIPE/IETF/ICANN meetings for longer than I can remember, > this couldn't possibly have been the first time you've come across a Monty > Python reference. > > And if you were confused, you could have said so at the time and asked > the original poster to explain. I think that's a far better way to handle things. > It's certainly far more productive than starting this meta-discussion or telling > others how they should express themselves. > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a > criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, > even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to > inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

His email contained a suggestion to move an entire thread, that is threatening to become all noise and no signal, to a more appropriate discussion venue, namely the diversity working group. His one-word reply (not counting quoting, which modern mail clients do a good job of hiring) may have been the highest signal to noise ratio of this entire OT (albeit legitimate meta-discussion) thread. Scott

On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:



...

On 1 Nov 2019, at 12:53, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> wrote:

Diversity?

Your email contained 1 word of signal and ~1000 words of noise.

Please try to be more considerate when you post.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 12:16 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg < address-policy-wg@ripe.net> wrote:

Hi Nick,

My point was also a general observation (not something against any specific participant, just taking advantage of this specific example, as a mention to "Spanish inquisition" and "routing police" could be interpreted in between lines as something different, even if not intended).

There are many non-native English speakers in the RIR communities (at it happens in IETF, ICANN, etc.), however, often the native ones forget about that and keep using those jargons.

Doing so, you as asking the non-native speakers to spend 4-5 more times to read each message, to google around, looking at Wikipedia, youtube, etc.

Note that I fully understand that for those that are native-speakers, you are just using your natural language and expression, but being considerate to others may be much easier for you than for non-native to waste their time.

Should then we, non-native speakers, start using in the list our own languages and expressions that even using google translator, you will not catch? Are we discriminating part of the community otherwise?

In some regards, you/we already do, as we impose our own English variants on other list members. I often need to spend 5-10 times more time reading your messages, than those of others, because you phrase things differently (and from my perspective, often awkwardly). It also happens with other non-native writers. I silently accept this as the cost of communication across borders with a common, imperfect language. It's how things are, and I'll just have to try and make the best of it. That said, I agree that anyone writing in their native or non-native English should be well aware that they need to be careful using idioms. -- Jan