RIPE NCC Executive Board election
Greetings all, I know that all is not right with the world right now, and that most of you, like me, have much more pressing things on your minds right now, but someone just sent me the following link and I cannot exactly ignore it: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2020/confirmed-can... I would like to call everyone's attention to the last of the three candidates who have, it seems, "qualified" as candidates for open seats of the RIPE NCC Executive Board. As I have already said, I know that things are bad in the world right now, but I must ask this question: Is there really no one other than these three candidates who is willing and/or able to stand for the three open seats on the RIPE NCC Executive board... three open seats that will be voted on at the next general meeting, 13-15 May 2020 ? If not, then it seems that RIPE NCC will soon be following in the new tradition, established first by AFRINIC only last year, of placing well and widely known crooks on it board. I desperately hope it won't come to that, but that is not for me to decide. The decision is in your hands dear friends. Regards, rfg
Ronald, While obviously I can only make comments for AA-WG (I note there are many WGs in x-post) I need to point out that this is not a suitable email for this working group. The NCC Exec Board elections are a matter for the NCC members, not this WG nor any other, despite any cross-over in membership. Obviously you may speak to whomever you wish on this matter, but please do not use this mailing list as a vehicle for that. It is not part of the charter nor purpose of the WG. I would also point out that the order of candidates on the website can change, so while I am explicitly not asking you to make any more specific comments, I would point out that mentioning someone's place on a list is not useful and is potentially very harmful. I would, while again asking you not to make any more specific comments about who you are talking about, ask that you acknowledge this. I would please ask you and all members of this list to be extremely careful in regards to mentioning or alluding to any specific people and their activities. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 ________________________________ From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Ronald F. Guilmette <rfg@tristatelogic.com> Sent: Thursday 16 April 2020 08:25 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>; db-wg@ripe.net <db-wg@ripe.net>; routing-wg@ripe.net <routing-wg@ripe.net>; address-policy-wg@ripe.net <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. Greetings all, I know that all is not right with the world right now, and that most of you, like me, have much more pressing things on your minds right now, but someone just sent me the following link and I cannot exactly ignore it: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.n... I would like to call everyone's attention to the last of the three candidates who have, it seems, "qualified" as candidates for open seats of the RIPE NCC Executive Board. As I have already said, I know that things are bad in the world right now, but I must ask this question: Is there really no one other than these three candidates who is willing and/or able to stand for the three open seats on the RIPE NCC Executive board... three open seats that will be voted on at the next general meeting, 13-15 May 2020 ? If not, then it seems that RIPE NCC will soon be following in the new tradition, established first by AFRINIC only last year, of placing well and widely known crooks on it board. I desperately hope it won't come to that, but that is not for me to decide. The decision is in your hands dear friends. Regards, rfg
I would like to second Brian's comments below. The DB-WG has no mandate to concern itself with issues concerning the RIPE NCC Exec Board. Any discussion would be inappropriate on this mailing list. cheersdenis co-chair DB-WG On Thursday, 16 April 2020, 10:34:54 CEST, Brian Nisbet via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> wrote: Ronald, While obviously I can only make comments for AA-WG (I note there are many WGs in x-post) I need to point out that this is not a suitable email for this working group. The NCC Exec Board elections are a matter for the NCC members, not this WG nor any other, despite any cross-over in membership. Obviously you may speak to whomever you wish on this matter, but please do not use this mailing list as a vehicle for that. It is not part of the charter nor purpose of the WG. I would also point out that the order of candidates on the website can change, so while I am explicitly not asking you to make any more specific comments, I would point out that mentioning someone's place on a list is not useful and is potentially very harmful. I would, while again asking you not to make any more specific comments about who you are talking about, ask that you acknowledge this. I would please ask you and all members of this list to be extremely careful in regards to mentioning or alluding to any specific people and their activities. Thanks, BrianCo-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Ronald F. Guilmette <rfg@tristatelogic.com> Sent: Thursday 16 April 2020 08:25 To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>; db-wg@ripe.net <db-wg@ripe.net>; routing-wg@ripe.net <routing-wg@ripe.net>; address-policy-wg@ripe.net <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. Greetings all, I know that all is not right with the world right now, and that most of you, like me, have much more pressing things on your minds right now, but someone just sent me the following link and I cannot exactly ignore it: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.n... I would like to call everyone's attention to the last of the three candidates who have, it seems, "qualified" as candidates for open seats of the RIPE NCC Executive Board. As I have already said, I know that things are bad in the world right now, but I must ask this question: Is there really no one other than these three candidates who is willing and/or able to stand for the three open seats on the RIPE NCC Executive board... three open seats that will be voted on at the next general meeting, 13-15 May 2020 ? If not, then it seems that RIPE NCC will soon be following in the new tradition, established first by AFRINIC only last year, of placing well and widely known crooks on it board. I desperately hope it won't come to that, but that is not for me to decide. The decision is in your hands dear friends. Regards, rfg
In message <DB7PR06MB5017A8B5895186225DA850AF94D80@DB7PR06MB5017.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
While obviously I can only make comments for AA-WG (I note there are many WGs in x-post) I need to point out that this is not a suitable email for this working group.
Others may disagree. I most certainly do. The Anti-Abuse Working Group has been repeatedly given ample opportunities to provide a formal definition for the term "abuse" with respect to the Internet, and Internet resources. It has declined all of these opportunities. It logically and inescapably follows from that fact that as far as the entire RIPE community goes, "abuse" remains in the eye of the beholder. I know more than a few people, both on this list and elsewhere, who, like me, are of the opinion that active participation in the fradulent theft of IP address blocks, regadless of which portion of the world's Internet they are stolen from, consititutes "abuse" of a kind that quite properly is and should be a concern of this working group. Also and likewise, I know more than a few people, both in this Working Group, and elsewhere, who, like me, are of the opinion that the act of attempting to fradulently extort IP address assets from the rightful owner of said assets, e.g. the City of Cape Town, South Africa, is "abuse" of a type that is and rightly should be of concern to this Working Group, and further, that these acts are also a repugnant abuse against simple honesty, decency, and humanity generally, and ones that cannot be either excused or dismissed, let alone rewarded with a RIPE NCC executive board seat. You, Brian, along with every other member of this Working Group had your opportunity to codify a definition of "abuse" that would explicitly exclude theft, fraud, and extortion, thuse rendering exactly such gross misdeeds explicitly irrelevant to this Working Group. You declined to do so, as did others. It follows that you cannot now say that such acts have no relevance to the Anti-Abuse Working Group. You are the Chainman of the Working Group. You are not the King... an entirely salient point which our own Mr. Trump has of late needed to be reminded of also. Theft, fraud, and extortion, especially as they relates to IP address allocations, as in this case, may be something that you personally prefer to turn a blind eye to, but your personal preferences in this regard cannot and will not override the conscience of those who prefer to see things as they are, based on abundant evidence, even if those members of this WG who still place some value on simple decency and honesty are in the minority. Regards, rfg
(Yes, I'm still X-Posting, folks, this will be my last email to all the copied WGs) Ronald, I have no issue with this group fighting abuse, I never have. In fact I would warmly welcome more policies, documentation and actions that can do that. That isn't to say there haven't been some put forward, albeit not all of those have reached consensus. That is the nature of our system, but I will say again that we are further along than we were and I hope that progress, even if it's slower than some may like, continues. What I do not think is suitable is a mail to this and other lists putting out vague comments, with the most specific (ie the position on a list) referring to the wrong person, about an election that is specific to members of the RIPE NCC. The crossover is significant, but far from total and I do not feel this is the proper place for electioneering. But you are right, I am not the king. Nor would I ever want to be. I am a co-chair of the AA-WG and as such am a facilitator, a coordinator and a go-between between this group and other groups. Part of that role is to facilitate discussion on this list, including the kind of email I sent yesterday. However I was appointed by this Working Group and it is entirely up to the Working Group if they wish me to continue in the job. The process, for those who are curious, is contained within this document: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/anti-abuse/anti-abuse-wg-chair-sele... This is not done to garner support, nor check in on how I'm doing, albeit feedback is always welcome, rather I want to be as transparent as possible. There is a lot of inertia in our community, as there is in others, and sometimes people assume that those in what we shall loosely refer to as "leadership positions" are immovable. Anyway, to return to your point and that of others. Is this Working Group, as a single entity, doing enough to fight abuse on the Internet? Almost certainly not. Are many, many members, including people such as yourself Ronald, working very hard in a lot of places? Absolutely. How do we do more? Well, to my mind, we go back to the charter (which can, of course, be changed by the Working Group at any point in time) and ask why we have never done the documentation work that's in there? Also, we continue with incremental policy changes, which is a long, hard, slow road, but gets results. I would also be mindful of what Tõnu said in regards to outside regulation, something I have mentioned at times. But as with any WG, the power and action is in the hands of the members, not *just* the Co-Chairs, who are members too. As a final point, if you have a preference as to who you would like to see elected in May and you don't have a vote yourself, then I encourage you to reach out to your friends and colleagues who are members of the RIPE NCC to discuss it with them, broadcast it to suitable fora, hire planes to write messages in the sky, but please, don't do it here. Thank you, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 ________________________________________ From: db-wg <db-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Ronald F. Guilmette via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net> Sent: Friday 17 April 2020 06:57 Cc: db-wg@ripe.net; routing-wg@ripe.net; address-policy-wg@ripe.net; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [db-wg] [anti-abuse-wg] RIPE NCC Executive Board election CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. In message <DB7PR06MB5017A8B5895186225DA850AF94D80@DB7PR06MB5017.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
While obviously I can only make comments for AA-WG (I note there are many WGs in x-post) I need to point out that this is not a suitable email for this working group.
Others may disagree. I most certainly do. The Anti-Abuse Working Group has been repeatedly given ample opportunities to provide a formal definition for the term "abuse" with respect to the Internet, and Internet resources. It has declined all of these opportunities. It logically and inescapably follows from that fact that as far as the entire RIPE community goes, "abuse" remains in the eye of the beholder. I know more than a few people, both on this list and elsewhere, who, like me, are of the opinion that active participation in the fradulent theft of IP address blocks, regadless of which portion of the world's Internet they are stolen from, consititutes "abuse" of a kind that quite properly is and should be a concern of this working group. Also and likewise, I know more than a few people, both in this Working Group, and elsewhere, who, like me, are of the opinion that the act of attempting to fradulently extort IP address assets from the rightful owner of said assets, e.g. the City of Cape Town, South Africa, is "abuse" of a type that is and rightly should be of concern to this Working Group, and further, that these acts are also a repugnant abuse against simple honesty, decency, and humanity generally, and ones that cannot be either excused or dismissed, let alone rewarded with a RIPE NCC executive board seat. You, Brian, along with every other member of this Working Group had your opportunity to codify a definition of "abuse" that would explicitly exclude theft, fraud, and extortion, thuse rendering exactly such gross misdeeds explicitly irrelevant to this Working Group. You declined to do so, as did others. It follows that you cannot now say that such acts have no relevance to the Anti-Abuse Working Group. You are the Chainman of the Working Group. You are not the King... an entirely salient point which our own Mr. Trump has of late needed to be reminded of also. Theft, fraud, and extortion, especially as they relates to IP address allocations, as in this case, may be something that you personally prefer to turn a blind eye to, but your personal preferences in this regard cannot and will not override the conscience of those who prefer to see things as they are, based on abundant evidence, even if those members of this WG who still place some value on simple decency and honesty are in the minority. Regards, rfg
perhaps, instead of really rude ad homina, you could try to be constructive by finding and nominating a really excellent candidate or two. randy
participants (4)
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Brian Nisbet -
Randy Bush -
ripedenis＠yahoo.co.uk -
Ronald F. Guilmette