Re: [address-policy-wg] [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all, the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members. This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses. cheers, Axel
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote:
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all,
the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members.
This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses.
cheers, Axel
Hi, On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that question. Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC serves it's *members*, not any government in particular. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi Gert, for my knowlege, there was NO democratic decision, at least becuse of all international observers (excepr Russian, of course) said the vote itself was totally fake, but I'm not about it now. NO GOVERMENT IN THE WORLD, including Dutch one, accepted Crimea is a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC does? If papers issued by Russian goverment in Crimea is acceptable because it is good for some members, can RIPE NCC accept same papers issued in Crimea say Principality of Sealand goverment as well? And the main question: Has RIPE NCC legal rights to accept that kind of documents at all? What RIPE NCC lawyers say? On 28.07.14 21:04, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that question.
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC serves it's *members*, not any government in particular.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
Max, I also wish to know if such scheme is available for Crimea then... May I send such papers for Ukrainian service region which was signed by i.e. Panama authorities? Why not? It is the same. -- Dmitriy Zemlyanoy. DeltaHost. http://deltahost.com Max Tulyev писал 2014-07-28 21:26:
Hi Gert,
for my knowlege, there was NO democratic decision, at least becuse of all international observers (excepr Russian, of course) said the vote itself was totally fake, but I'm not about it now.
NO GOVERMENT IN THE WORLD, including Dutch one, accepted Crimea is a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC does?
If papers issued by Russian goverment in Crimea is acceptable because it is good for some members, can RIPE NCC accept same papers issued in Crimea say Principality of Sealand goverment as well?
And the main question: Has RIPE NCC legal rights to accept that kind of documents at all? What RIPE NCC lawyers say?
On 28.07.14 21:04, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that question.
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC serves it's *members*, not any government in particular.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
Max, I unterstund that you are not very happy what happend last time. This is very bad situation for all people. We are not politics. Our community help people work. Axel suggested very smart solution - any paper from any goverment. I support this position. This is neutral decussion, which allow people work in Internet. -- Aleksei 28.07.2014 22:26 - Max Tulyev написал(а): Hi Gert, for my knowlege, there was NO democratic decision, at least becuse of all international observers (excepr Russian, of course) said the vote itself was totally fake, but I'm not about it now. NO GOVERMENT IN THE WORLD, including Dutch one, accepted Crimea is a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC does? If papers issued by Russian goverment in Crimea is acceptable because it is good for some members, can RIPE NCC accept same papers issued in Crimea say Principality of Sealand goverment as well? And the main question: Has RIPE NCC legal rights to accept that kind of documents at all? What RIPE NCC lawyers say? On 28.07.14 21:04, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that question.
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC serves it's *members*, not any government in particular.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia
This is wrong statement. Not Crimea people decided, but Russian soldiers. Probably you know that nobody in the world accept the results of referendum under machine guns. -- Dmitriy Zemlyanoy. DeltaHost. http://deltahost.com
Hi, On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 02:53:52AM +0300, Dmitriy Zemlyanoy wrote:
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia
This is wrong statement. Not Crimea people decided, but Russian soldiers. Probably you know that nobody in the world accept the results of referendum under machine guns.
If you quote me, quote me completely, do not cut off the second half, otherwise it's not useful discussing with you. I did present a balanced view *BECAUSE* it is hard to understand from the outside what exactly happened there, without having been there, as it's not clear which reports are trustworthy and which are not. Both sides use the media to spread propaganda. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Gert Doering, Just one question. Will RIPE NCC acept these documents or not? If yes, that will show that European words means nothing. And words are not backed up by actions. Kseniya 29.07.2014 10:33, Gert Doering пишет:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 02:53:52AM +0300, Dmitriy Zemlyanoy wrote:
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia
This is wrong statement. Not Crimea people decided, but Russian soldiers. Probably you know that nobody in the world accept the results of referendum under machine guns.
If you quote me, quote me completely, do not cut off the second half, otherwise it's not useful discussing with you.
I did present a balanced view *BECAUSE* it is hard to understand from the outside what exactly happened there, without having been there, as it's not clear which reports are trustworthy and which are not. Both sides use the media to spread propaganda.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
-- С ув. Ксения Сокол
Hi, On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 10:57:55AM +0300, ksyu@netassist.ua wrote:
Just one question. Will RIPE NCC acept these documents or not?
I can't speak for the RIPE NCC. Axel does, and he has given you an answer.
If yes, that will show that European words means nothing. And words are not backed up by actions.
Please take your fight and accusations elsewhere. It does not have anything to do with the address policy working group. I asked Max already: what are you trying to do? All you can achieve here is "spread the unhappiness". Accusing the NCC will not solve the problems in Ucraine or Crimea. Again: what are you trying to achieve? Get the NCC to refuse service to new LIRs that are being established in crimea, and who will not be able to provide ucrainian papers today? Who are you going to hurt with that, if NCC refuses service - Russia, or "the LIR that just wants to do business"? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On 29 Jul 2014, at 10:21, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Please take your fight and accusations elsewhere. It does not have anything to do with the address policy working group.
+1000000 RIPE and the NCC should keep well out of these political matters. It might be OK to express the obvious concerns about ending the conflict and support for humanitarian assistance. However it's hard to see how these are remotely relevant to this or any other WG. If/when a new LIR in this conflict area -- is there an existence proof of such an LIR? -- the NCC can take a pragmatic decision about whether the documentation for that new member is in order or not. Axel's already outlined the general approach.
On 29 Jul 2014, at 11:35, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:
On 29 Jul 2014, at 10:21, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Please take your fight and accusations elsewhere. It does not have anything to do with the address policy working group.
+1000000
RIPE and the NCC should keep well out of these political matters.
Away from the political aspects: indeed! This is not the place where these things can be solved. Away from the legal aspects, quite possibly not. There is a requirement to provide legal papers and it would be good for the RIPE NCC to seek advice on the matter without making judgement calls. I don’t think anyone wants a repeat of previous sub-optimal handling of legal and law enforcement requests by the RIPE NCC. It’s better to be on solid ground and it shouldn’t be hard to ask for legal review. Joao
Guys. Will you say the same when war will came to your house? What will you do when Putins mercenary will kill your family (and they already did it with hundreds of families on MH17). You have to understand - the new war is coming to Europe. And agressor must be stopped. Everywhere. Also in the internet - to prevent propaganda spread. -- Dmitriy Zemlyanoy. DeltaHost. http://deltahost.com João Damas писал 2014-07-29 12:54:
On 29 Jul 2014, at 11:35, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:
On 29 Jul 2014, at 10:21, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Please take your fight and accusations elsewhere. It does not have anything to do with the address policy working group.
+1000000
RIPE and the NCC should keep well out of these political matters.
Away from the political aspects: indeed! This is not the place where these things can be solved.
Away from the legal aspects, quite possibly not. There is a requirement to provide legal papers and it would be good for the RIPE NCC to seek advice on the matter without making judgement calls. I don’t think anyone wants a repeat of previous sub-optimal handling of legal and law enforcement requests by the RIPE NCC. It’s better to be on solid ground and it shouldn’t be hard to ask for legal review.
Joao
Dmitriy, all, as has been stated repeatedly, this is not the place for this discussion. The initial question was "will RIPE NCC hand resources to a LIR in Crimea, based on Russian papers" and the clear answer is "if said papers establish the existence of the LIR and substantiate the LIR's claims, yes". I am sure many people hold strong opinions on the topic of Crimea, but neither RIPE NCC nor RIPE community is the place to discuss this topic. Does this, and other, situations suck? Yes. Can RIPE NCC do anything about it? No. As Gert pointed out, what you seem to be arguing for is basically a punishment for any Crimean LIRs for being located in a region of conflict. What would that achieve? About as much as the current discussion. Richard PS: There have been and are other conflict regions within RIPE region; those are not punished for being in the wrong place, either. PPS: You are free to try and submit a PDP and/or bring the topic up at a RIPE meeting, but don't expect consensus.
lets see this article http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.226.01... 29.07.2014 16:45, Richard Hartmann пишет:
Dmitriy, all,
as has been stated repeatedly, this is not the place for this discussion.
The initial question was "will RIPE NCC hand resources to a LIR in Crimea, based on Russian papers" and the clear answer is "if said papers establish the existence of the LIR and substantiate the LIR's claims, yes".
I am sure many people hold strong opinions on the topic of Crimea, but neither RIPE NCC nor RIPE community is the place to discuss this topic. Does this, and other, situations suck? Yes. Can RIPE NCC do anything about it? No.
As Gert pointed out, what you seem to be arguing for is basically a punishment for any Crimean LIRs for being located in a region of conflict. What would that achieve? About as much as the current discussion.
Richard
PS: There have been and are other conflict regions within RIPE region; those are not punished for being in the wrong place, either.
PPS: You are free to try and submit a PDP and/or bring the topic up at a RIPE meeting, but don't expect consensus.
-- С ув. Ксения Сокол
Hello, I do not like civil wars, wars or similar events, however, shell we punish LIRs because they work in an area of conflict? Defnitely not. Shall we punish the end users? Definitely not. Shell we discuss at RIPE lists the political or military conflicts? Definitely not. I fully agree with Axel Pawlik and Richard Hartmann. Thnkx, Géza On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 1:04 PM, ksyu@netassist.ua <ksyu@netassist.ua> wrote:
lets see this article
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri= uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.226.01.0002.01.ENG
29.07.2014 16:45, Richard Hartmann пишет:
Dmitriy, all,
as has been stated repeatedly, this is not the place for this discussion.
The initial question was "will RIPE NCC hand resources to a LIR in Crimea, based on Russian papers" and the clear answer is "if said papers establish the existence of the LIR and substantiate the LIR's claims, yes".
I am sure many people hold strong opinions on the topic of Crimea, but neither RIPE NCC nor RIPE community is the place to discuss this topic. Does this, and other, situations suck? Yes. Can RIPE NCC do anything about it? No.
As Gert pointed out, what you seem to be arguing for is basically a punishment for any Crimean LIRs for being located in a region of conflict. What would that achieve? About as much as the current discussion.
Richard
PS: There have been and are other conflict regions within RIPE region; those are not punished for being in the wrong place, either.
PPS: You are free to try and submit a PDP and/or bring the topic up at a RIPE meeting, but don't expect consensus.
-- С ув. Ксения Сокол
Hello, shell we obey the EU and Dutch law? Definitely not. On 31.07.14 15:17, Turchanyi Geza wrote:
Hello,
I do not like civil wars, wars or similar events, however, shell we punish LIRs because they work in an area of conflict?
Defnitely not.
Shall we punish the end users?
Definitely not.
Shell we discuss at RIPE lists the political or military conflicts?
Definitely not.
I fully agree with Axel Pawlik and Richard Hartmann.
Thnkx,
Géza
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 1:04 PM, ksyu@netassist.ua <mailto:ksyu@netassist.ua> <ksyu@netassist.ua <mailto:ksyu@netassist.ua>> wrote:
lets see this article
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/__legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=__uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.22... <http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.226.01.0002.01.ENG>
29.07.2014 16:45, Richard Hartmann пишет:
Dmitriy, all,
as has been stated repeatedly, this is not the place for this discussion.
The initial question was "will RIPE NCC hand resources to a LIR in Crimea, based on Russian papers" and the clear answer is "if said papers establish the existence of the LIR and substantiate the LIR's claims, yes".
I am sure many people hold strong opinions on the topic of Crimea, but neither RIPE NCC nor RIPE community is the place to discuss this topic. Does this, and other, situations suck? Yes. Can RIPE NCC do anything about it? No.
As Gert pointed out, what you seem to be arguing for is basically a punishment for any Crimean LIRs for being located in a region of conflict. What would that achieve? About as much as the current discussion.
Richard
PS: There have been and are other conflict regions within RIPE region; those are not punished for being in the wrong place, either.
PPS: You are free to try and submit a PDP and/or bring the topic up at a RIPE meeting, but don't expect consensus.
-- С ув. Ксения Сокол
Max, asking you again: *what* *are* *you* *trying* *to* *achieve*? If there is no answer to that that can be achieved by posting here, then please stop it. Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
asking you again: *what* *are* *you* *trying* *to* *achieve*?
If there is no answer to that that can be achieved by posting here, then please stop it.
there is a problem. no, it can not be solved here, as far as i can see. so use your delete key if it annoys you. sheesh! randy
Hi, Am 31.07.2014 13:04, schrieb ksyu@netassist.ua:
lets see this article
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.226.01...
Interesting. ------------ 2.Annex III shall include key equipment and technology related to the creation, acquisition or development of infrastructure in the following sectors: (..) (b) telecommunications; (...) (...) 3.It shall be prohibited to: (a)provide, directly or indirectly, technical assistance or brokering services related to the key equipment and technology listed in Annex III, or related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance and use of items listed in Annex III to any natural or legal person, entity or body in Crimea or Sevastopol or for use in Crimea or Sevastopol; and (...) --------------- To my understanding, IP-numbers are kind of "key technology" for telecommunications and so the RIPE services shall fall under this EU directive. However, Annex III does not list (yet) anything directly IP related, so the RIPE sevices seem not to fall unders this EU directive. Someone should tell the EU, that this new internet-thingy is kind of a key technology for telecommunications. I do not think that RIPE should make its own policy/politics in this issue but should just follow the law. Greetings Andreas
29.07.2014 16:45, Richard Hartmann пишет:
Dmitriy, all,
as has been stated repeatedly, this is not the place for this discussion.
The initial question was "will RIPE NCC hand resources to a LIR in Crimea, based on Russian papers" and the clear answer is "if said papers establish the existence of the LIR and substantiate the LIR's claims, yes".
-- INS GmbH www.ins.de Gaswerkstraße 64 D-44575 Castrop-Rauxel Tel: +49 2305 101 0 Fax: +49 2305 101 155 Geschäftsführung: Andreas Frackowiak Alle Angebote sind unverbindlich. AG Dortmund: HRB 17064
Andreas, I think you perfectly understand that the RIPE services are not restricted by this EU directive. And this is GOOD. Why shall anybody create a hole in the map? A hole in the map would create less conflicts or more??? Allowing people talk to others creates less danger than not allowing! Thanks, Géza On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andreas Frackowiak <af@ins.de> wrote:
Hi,
Am 31.07.2014 13:04, schrieb ksyu@netassist.ua:
lets see this article
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.226.01...
Interesting.
------------ 2.Annex III shall include key equipment and technology related to the creation, acquisition or development of infrastructure in the following sectors: (..) (b) telecommunications; (...)
(...) 3.It shall be prohibited to:
(a)provide, directly or indirectly, technical assistance or brokering services related to the key equipment and technology listed in Annex III, or related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance and use of items listed in Annex III to any natural or legal person, entity or body in Crimea or Sevastopol or for use in Crimea or Sevastopol; and (...) ---------------
To my understanding, IP-numbers are kind of "key technology" for telecommunications and so the RIPE services shall fall under this EU directive.
However, Annex III does not list (yet) anything directly IP related, so the RIPE sevices seem not to fall unders this EU directive.
Someone should tell the EU, that this new internet-thingy is kind of a key technology for telecommunications.
I do not think that RIPE should make its own policy/politics in this issue but should just follow the law.
Greetings Andreas
29.07.2014 16:45, Richard Hartmann пишет:
Dmitriy, all,
as has been stated repeatedly, this is not the place for this discussion.
The initial question was "will RIPE NCC hand resources to a LIR in Crimea, based on Russian papers" and the clear answer is "if said papers establish the existence of the LIR and substantiate the LIR's claims, yes".
-- INS GmbH www.ins.de Gaswerkstraße 64 D-44575 Castrop-Rauxel Tel: +49 2305 101 0 Fax: +49 2305 101 155 Geschäftsführung: Andreas Frackowiak Alle Angebote sind unverbindlich. AG Dortmund: HRB 17064
Hi Kseniya,
Just one question. Will RIPE NCC acept these documents or not?
If yes, that will show that European words means nothing. And words are not backed up by actions.
The RIPE NCC tries to take a pragmatic view: Just because some politicians decided it was a good idea to start a war, that shouldn’t mean that some people cannot register addresses. The RIPE NCC is in the business of registering addresses, not in the business of taking sides in international conflicts. And I for one think this is a good thing. The Crimean situation will be resolved one way or another and nothing we or the RIPE NCC do will change the outcome. In the mean time the people of Ukraine, the people of Russia and the people of Crimea all have a need for RIPE NCC services and I’m glad the RIPE NCC is trying to not let stupid politics get in the way of providing those services. All the best, Alex
Kseniya
29.07.2014 10:33, Gert Doering пишет:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 02:53:52AM +0300, Dmitriy Zemlyanoy wrote:
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia
This is wrong statement. Not Crimea people decided, but Russian soldiers. Probably you know that nobody in the world accept the results of referendum under machine guns.
If you quote me, quote me completely, do not cut off the second half, otherwise it's not useful discussing with you.
I did present a balanced view *BECAUSE* it is hard to understand from the outside what exactly happened there, without having been there, as it's not clear which reports are trustworthy and which are not. Both sides use the media to spread propaganda.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
-- С ув. Ксения Сокол
Hi all, Dont get me wrong, but Is this list the correct one to discuss about if Crimea is or isnt part of Russia or Ukranie. If the Crimea ppl decided to be or forced to be part of Russia? I think we shouldnt take part in a politic discussion, even more when this list only references to Address Policy, not RIPE politics.
Kseniya wrote:
Gert Doering,
Just one question. Will RIPE NCC acept these documents or not?
If yes, that will show that European words means nothing. And words are not backed up by actions.
Im NOT answering in name of Gert, but I think Gert dont have the answer to that. Remember, this is the ADDRESS POLICY, not the RIPE POLITICS working group. Best Regards, -Daniel El 29/07/2014 9:33, Gert Doering escribió:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 02:53:52AM +0300, Dmitriy Zemlyanoy wrote:
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia
This is wrong statement. Not Crimea people decided, but Russian soldiers. Probably you know that nobody in the world accept the results of referendum under machine guns.
If you quote me, quote me completely, do not cut off the second half, otherwise it's not useful discussing with you.
I did present a balanced view *BECAUSE* it is hard to understand from the outside what exactly happened there, without having been there, as it's not clear which reports are trustworthy and which are not. Both sides use the media to spread propaganda.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
-- Daniel Baeza Centro de Observación de Red Dpto. Red y Sistemas Television Costa Blanca S.L. Telf. 966.190.847 | Fax. 965.074.390 http://www.tvt.es | http://www.tvt-datos.es Correo: d.baeza@tvt-datos.es -- [Atención] La información contenida en este e-mail es confidencial, privilegiada y está dirigida exclusivamente a su destinatario. Cualquier revisión, difusión, distribución o copiado de este mensaje sin autorización del propietario está prohibido. Si ha recibido este e-mail por error por favor bórrelo y envíe un mensaje al remitente. [Disclaimer] The information contained in this e-mail is privileged and confidential and is intended only for its addressee. Any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received it in error please delete the original message and e-mail us. (!) El medio ambiente es responsabilidad de todos. Imprime este mail si es absolutamente necesario.
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Daniel Baeza (Red y Sistemas TVT) < d.baeza@tvt-datos.es> wrote:
Hi all,
Dont get me wrong, but Is this list the correct one to discuss about if Crimea is or isnt part of Russia or Ukranie. If the Crimea ppl decided to be or forced to be part of Russia?
No, it's not. Im NOT answering in name of Gert, but I think Gert dont have the answer to
that. Remember, this is the ADDRESS POLICY, not the RIPE POLITICS working group.
And "ADDRESS" does not mean postal address, but IP ADDRESS and ASN, in case some list members were in doubt. http://www.ripe.net/ripe/groups/wg/ap -- Jan
Dear all, Its just my couple of cents, please disregard if you feel this inappropriate 1. The problem raised by Max is deeper. It concerns two properties with the way Internet resources are distributed: a) some independence from the national governments, and b) neutrality. These principles have enabled the proliferation of the Internet globally. Internet being an alternative ITU-independent, community-driven etc. blah blah we all know it. 2. Neutrality as well as freedom of information would be more useful to the oppressor at any conflict situation. There are situations where these have to be challenged and questioned over and over. Its because "neutrality" in some cases could be seen as a collaboration with the occupant or worse - a silent participation in a crime. Question is whenever there should be a special policy in such cases for allocation of resources, or current set of policies are sufficient enough. 3. Paradoxically, neutrality, availability of international resources like Internet connectivity, and objective information in the grey zones of conflicts and disputes are the only counter-measures against the propaganda of whichever side. So yes, IMHO it is an appropriate forum to discuss the current set of policies of distribution of Internet resources in the light of current situation. LIR registration policy requires "The legal, registered address of your organization" to be provided. If RIPE NCC or any RIR will consider "Sevastopol, Russia" a legal address of the company, then it creates a precedent for even less favorable "legal" addresses. The same should apply to the change of legal address, reallocation of resources, etc. On the other hand denial of change will essentially void the functionality of LIR. Requests for allocation of resources for the region by the legal (not "legal") entity, e.g. existing registered LIR shall be processed normally. There is no good answer in these cases. -----Original Message----- From: address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Daniel Baeza (Red y Sistemas TVT) Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:10 AM To: address-policy-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers Hi all, Dont get me wrong, but Is this list the correct one to discuss about if Crimea is or isnt part of Russia or Ukranie. If the Crimea ppl decided to be or forced to be part of Russia? I think we shouldnt take part in a politic discussion, even more when this list only references to Address Policy, not RIPE politics.
Kseniya wrote:
Gert Doering,
Just one question. Will RIPE NCC acept these documents or not?
If yes, that will show that European words means nothing. And words >are not backed up by actions.
Im NOT answering in name of Gert, but I think Gert dont have the answer to that. Remember, this is the ADDRESS POLICY, not the RIPE POLITICS working group. Best Regards, -Daniel El 29/07/2014 9:33, Gert Doering escribió:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 02:53:52AM +0300, Dmitriy Zemlyanoy wrote:
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia
This is wrong statement. Not Crimea people decided, but Russian soldiers. Probably you know that nobody in the world accept the results of referendum under machine guns.
If you quote me, quote me completely, do not cut off the second half, otherwise it's not useful discussing with you.
I did present a balanced view *BECAUSE* it is hard to understand from the outside what exactly happened there, without having been there, as it's not clear which reports are trustworthy and which are not. Both sides use the media to spread propaganda.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
-- Daniel Baeza Centro de Observación de Red Dpto. Red y Sistemas Television Costa Blanca S.L. Telf. 966.190.847 | Fax. 965.074.390 http://www.tvt.es | http://www.tvt-datos.es Correo: d.baeza@tvt-datos.es -- [Atención] La información contenida en este e-mail es confidencial, privilegiada y está dirigida exclusivamente a su destinatario. Cualquier revisión, difusión, distribución o copiado de este mensaje sin autorización del propietario está prohibido. Si ha recibido este e-mail por error por favor bórrelo y envíe un mensaje al remitente. [Disclaimer] The information contained in this e-mail is privileged and confidential and is intended only for its addressee. Any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received it in error please delete the original message and e-mail us. (!) El medio ambiente es responsabilidad de todos. Imprime este mail si es absolutamente necesario.
Hi Raimundas, This is the correct list to discuss about address policies, not about if RIPE should or shouldnt accept Crimea as Russia or Ukraine. In this list we dont set the legal/law questions about RIPE. The person interested if RIPE will/wont take LIRs with paper from Crimea, Russia or Crimea, Ukraine should ask directly to RIPE. As Michiel wrote before: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/contact Then ask there your question. Here we cant help you on that. Best Regards, El 29/07/2014 11:31, Raimundas Tuminauskas escribió:
Dear all,
Its just my couple of cents, please disregard if you feel this inappropriate
1. The problem raised by Max is deeper. It concerns two properties with the way Internet resources are distributed: a) some independence from the national governments, and b) neutrality. These principles have enabled the proliferation of the Internet globally. Internet being an alternative ITU-independent, community-driven etc. blah blah we all know it. 2. Neutrality as well as freedom of information would be more useful to the oppressor at any conflict situation. There are situations where these have to be challenged and questioned over and over. Its because "neutrality" in some cases could be seen as a collaboration with the occupant or worse - a silent participation in a crime. Question is whenever there should be a special policy in such cases for allocation of resources, or current set of policies are sufficient enough. 3. Paradoxically, neutrality, availability of international resources like Internet connectivity, and objective information in the grey zones of conflicts and disputes are the only counter-measures against the propaganda of whichever side.
So yes, IMHO it is an appropriate forum to discuss the current set of policies of distribution of Internet resources in the light of current situation.
LIR registration policy requires "The legal, registered address of your organization" to be provided. If RIPE NCC or any RIR will consider "Sevastopol, Russia" a legal address of the company, then it creates a precedent for even less favorable "legal" addresses. The same should apply to the change of legal address, reallocation of resources, etc. On the other hand denial of change will essentially void the functionality of LIR. Requests for allocation of resources for the region by the legal (not "legal") entity, e.g. existing registered LIR shall be processed normally.
There is no good answer in these cases.
-----Original Message----- From: address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Daniel Baeza (Red y Sistemas TVT) Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:10 AM To: address-policy-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers
Hi all,
Dont get me wrong, but Is this list the correct one to discuss about if Crimea is or isnt part of Russia or Ukranie. If the Crimea ppl decided to be or forced to be part of Russia?
I think we shouldnt take part in a politic discussion, even more when this list only references to Address Policy, not RIPE politics.
Kseniya wrote:
Gert Doering,
Just one question. Will RIPE NCC acept these documents or not?
If yes, that will show that European words means nothing. And words >are not backed up by actions.
Im NOT answering in name of Gert, but I think Gert dont have the answer to that. Remember, this is the ADDRESS POLICY, not the RIPE POLITICS working group.
Best Regards,
-Daniel
El 29/07/2014 9:33, Gert Doering escribió:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 02:53:52AM +0300, Dmitriy Zemlyanoy wrote:
Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia
This is wrong statement. Not Crimea people decided, but Russian soldiers. Probably you know that nobody in the world accept the results of referendum under machine guns.
If you quote me, quote me completely, do not cut off the second half, otherwise it's not useful discussing with you.
I did present a balanced view *BECAUSE* it is hard to understand from the outside what exactly happened there, without having been there, as it's not clear which reports are trustworthy and which are not. Both sides use the media to spread propaganda.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
-- Daniel Baeza Centro de Observación de Red Dpto. Red y Sistemas Television Costa Blanca S.L. Telf. 966.190.847 | Fax. 965.074.390 http://www.tvt.es | http://www.tvt-datos.es Correo: d.baeza@tvt-datos.es
--
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sin autorización del propietario está prohibido. Si ha recibido este
e-mail por error por favor bórrelo y envíe un mensaje al remitente.
[Disclaimer] The information contained in this e-mail is privileged and
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Any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited.
If you have received it in error please delete the original message and e-mail us.
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-- Daniel Baeza Centro de Observación de Red Dpto. Red y Sistemas Television Costa Blanca S.L. Telf. 966.190.847 | Fax. 965.074.390 http://www.tvt.es | http://www.tvt-datos.es Correo: d.baeza@tvt-datos.es -- [Atención] La información contenida en este e-mail es confidencial, privilegiada y está dirigida exclusivamente a su destinatario. Cualquier revisión, difusión, distribución o copiado de este mensaje sin autorización del propietario está prohibido. Si ha recibido este e-mail por error por favor bórrelo y envíe un mensaje al remitente. [Disclaimer] The information contained in this e-mail is privileged and confidential and is intended only for its addressee. Any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received it in error please delete the original message and e-mail us. (!) El medio ambiente es responsabilidad de todos. Imprime este mail si es absolutamente necesario.
RIPE said they are neutral. I interpret that to mean that if a member chooses one over the other, that is up to them. There are a variety of reasons why one might choose one over the other, including no other choice but to do so. That shouldn't prevent someone from getting the resources they need. Best, -M< On Jul 28, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote:
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all,
the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members.
This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses.
cheers, Axel
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Not necessarily, I see it more of akin to a situation where a member is registered in country A but requests resources in Country B. Both .ua and .ru are in the RIPE Service Region, after all. If there is a territorial dispute between countries in different service regions, it might be more "interesting". rgds, Sascha Luck
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote:
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all,
the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members.
This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses.
cheers, Axel
On 2014-07-28, 20:40 , "Max Tulyev" <president@ukraine.su> wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max, Axel said that the RIPE NCC would accept documentation proving that an entity exists from any country. Nothing more, nothing less. By your logic, if an entity present in Russia would be present documentation issued by the government of Luxembourg that the RIPE NCC would accept, the RIPE NCC would also accept that Russia is now part of Luxembourg. I¹m sure the Grand Duke of Luxembourg would be thrilled to know that he managed to annex Russia while he wasn¹t looking. Alex
On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote:
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all,
the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members.
This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses.
cheers, Axel
I think ripe ncc must get consultancy from dutch lawer regarding this situation. imho ripe ncc must work with LEGAL ( based on dutch law ) organizations only. How is it possible to sign agreement with illegal company? How to take an action against same company or something else?
That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! On 29.07.14 00:00, noable wrote:
I think ripe ncc must get consultancy from dutch lawer regarding this situation.
imho ripe ncc must work with LEGAL ( based on dutch law ) organizations only. How is it possible to sign agreement with illegal company? How to take an action against same company or something else?
Hi,
Op 28 jul. 2014 om 23:00 heeft noable <noable@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
I think ripe ncc must get consultancy from dutch lawer regarding this situation.
imho ripe ncc must work with LEGAL ( based on dutch law ) organizations only. How is it possible to sign agreement with illegal company? How to take an action against same company or something else?
The NCC has a legal council and is probably more than willing to investigate questions like which entity in which country, under which law, it can deal with (or not). Obviously the company register needs to be correct and if that is not the case, the legal council will provide guidance on how to deal with those situations.. Regards, Erik Bais
Great! Consensus! ;) So where and when I can read the conclusion of NCC legal council and its explanation? On 29.07.14 00:20, Erik Bais wrote:
Hi,
Op 28 jul. 2014 om 23:00 heeft noable <noable@gmail.com <mailto:noable@gmail.com>> het volgende geschreven:
I think ripe ncc must get consultancy from dutch lawer regarding this situation.
imho ripe ncc must work with LEGAL ( based on dutch law ) organizations only. How is it possible to sign agreement with illegal company? How to take an action against same company or something else?
The NCC has a legal council and is probably more than willing to investigate questions like which entity in which country, under which law, it can deal with (or not).
Obviously the company register needs to be correct and if that is not the case, the legal council will provide guidance on how to deal with those situations..
Regards, Erik Bais
:)))) The question is *WILL* RIPE NCC accept that document or will said something like "Luixemburg company? With Novosibirsk registered office? Hey, get out of me that kind of illegal paper!" Will they? On 28.07.14 23:50, Alex Le Heux wrote:
On 2014-07-28, 20:40 , "Max Tulyev" <president@ukraine.su> wrote:
So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia?
Max,
Axel said that the RIPE NCC would accept documentation proving that an entity exists from any country. Nothing more, nothing less.
By your logic, if an entity present in Russia would be present documentation issued by the government of Luxembourg that the RIPE NCC would accept, the RIPE NCC would also accept that Russia is now part of Luxembourg.
I¹m sure the Grand Duke of Luxembourg would be thrilled to know that he managed to annex Russia while he wasn¹t looking.
Alex
On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote:
On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote:
Hello All,
Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why?
Max, all,
the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members.
This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses.
cheers, Axel
Hi Max, I understand your frustration, but this is not the place to fight this fight. The RIPE NCC has both Russian and Ukrainian members. A member can be an existing entity under either Russian or Ukrainian law. The location of the entity doesn't matter in this case. A company can have its office in Crimea, independent of whether it is registered as a Russian or a Ukrainian company and independent of which country Crimea belongs to. The RIPE NCC can only deal with if an entity exists. Compare it to this: if I would go and live in Belgium I can be a member as a Dutch personal entity while having a Belgian address. But this is getting severely off-topic for this mailing list, so let's stop this discussion here and focus on address policy again :) Cheers, Sander
Hi Sander, the problem is Russian authority can NOT issue a company papers for company based in Crimea, if Crimea is not a part of Russia. It is clear? Dutch goverment (and dutch law) is not recognized Crimea as a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC accepts that kind of papers as legal? On 28.07.14 23:58, Sander Steffann wrote:
Hi Max,
I understand your frustration, but this is not the place to fight this fight. The RIPE NCC has both Russian and Ukrainian members. A member can be an existing entity under either Russian or Ukrainian law. The location of the entity doesn't matter in this case. A company can have its office in Crimea, independent of whether it is registered as a Russian or a Ukrainian company and independent of which country Crimea belongs to. The RIPE NCC can only deal with if an entity exists.
Compare it to this: if I would go and live in Belgium I can be a member as a Dutch personal entity while having a Belgian address.
But this is getting severely off-topic for this mailing list, so let's stop this discussion here and focus on address policy again :)
Cheers, Sander
Hi Max, Please tell us why you choose to spam thousands of subscribers of public mailinglists, while your question should have been addressed directly to NCC legal desk? http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/contact
Because it concern to everyone. Today you accept russian aggression. Tomorrow will die more than 298 YOUR people from their arms. 29.07.2014 11:43, Michiel Klaver пишет:
Hi Max,
Please tell us why you choose to spam thousands of subscribers of public mailinglists, while your question should have been addressed directly to NCC legal desk?
-- С ув. Ксения Сокол
El 29/07/2014 10:53, ksyu@netassist.ua escribió:
Because it concern to everyone. Today you accept russian aggression. Tomorrow will die more than 298 YOUR people from their arms.
And this is what happens when you discuss something political in a list that has nothing to do.
29.07.2014 11:43, Michiel Klaver пишет:
Hi Max,
Please tell us why you choose to spam thousands of subscribers of public mailinglists, while your question should have been addressed directly to NCC legal desk?
-- Daniel Baeza Centro de Observación de Red Dpto. Red y Sistemas Television Costa Blanca S.L. Telf. 966.190.847 | Fax. 965.074.390 http://www.tvt.es | http://www.tvt-datos.es Correo: d.baeza@tvt-datos.es -- [Atención] La información contenida en este e-mail es confidencial, privilegiada y está dirigida exclusivamente a su destinatario. Cualquier revisión, difusión, distribución o copiado de este mensaje sin autorización del propietario está prohibido. Si ha recibido este e-mail por error por favor bórrelo y envíe un mensaje al remitente. [Disclaimer] The information contained in this e-mail is privileged and confidential and is intended only for its addressee. Any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received it in error please delete the original message and e-mail us. (!) El medio ambiente es responsabilidad de todos. Imprime este mail si es absolutamente necesario.
it concerns everyone, but the question asked can only be answered by RIPE NCC legal desk. When they answer and it is not satisfying, you should contact your ambassy and take it to the political level. We as LIR members cannot change politics. ksyu@netassist.ua wrote at 29-07-2014 10:53:
Because it concern to everyone. Today you accept russian aggression. Tomorrow will die more than 298 YOUR people from their arms.
29.07.2014 11:43, Michiel Klaver пишет:
Hi Max,
Please tell us why you choose to spam thousands of subscribers of public mailinglists, while your question should have been addressed directly to NCC legal desk?
No-no. It is NOT "...independent of which country Crimea belongs to". It is VERY important: Crimea belongs to Ukraine. And Dutch authorities recognize Crimea as Ukraine land. Dutch authorities said about it on the hoghest level: in the United Nations Security Council. So, there are no variants for Dutch government, but only one: Crimea is Ukraine. Dot. I think RIPE MUST NOT accept Russian issued papers for Ukraine based companies. Otherwise RIPE should start accept any country issued papers for any entities. For example: Ukrainian based companies with Panama issued papers. -- Dmitriy Zemlyanoy. DeltaHost. http://deltahost.com Sander Steffann писал 2014-07-28 23:58:
Hi Max,
I understand your frustration, but this is not the place to fight this fight. The RIPE NCC has both Russian and Ukrainian members. A member can be an existing entity under either Russian or Ukrainian law. The location of the entity doesn't matter in this case. A company can have its office in Crimea, independent of whether it is registered as a Russian or a Ukrainian company and independent of which country Crimea belongs to. The RIPE NCC can only deal with if an entity exists.
Compare it to this: if I would go and live in Belgium I can be a member as a Dutch personal entity while having a Belgian address.
But this is getting severely off-topic for this mailing list, so let's stop this discussion here and focus on address policy again :)
Cheers, Sander
the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members.
This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses.
The problem it entities on the occupied territory is not legal. They illegal. Until another is confirmed by _legal_ (Ukrainian in this case) authorities. -- Dmitriy Zemlyanoy. DeltaHost. http://deltahost.com
participants (22)
-
Alex Le Heux -
Andreas Frackowiak -
Axel Pawlik -
Daniel Baeza (Red y Sistemas TVT) -
Dmitriy Zemlyanoy -
Erik Bais -
Gert Doering -
Hannigan, Martin -
Jan Ingvoldstad -
Jim Reid -
João Damas -
ksyu＠netassist.ua -
LeaderTelecom Ltd. -
Max Tulyev -
Michiel Klaver -
noable -
Raimundas Tuminauskas -
Randy Bush -
Richard Hartmann -
Sander Steffann -
Sascha Luck -
Turchanyi Geza