daniel, and both of us predate ripe, icann, and so forth. and many folk here contributed to the formation of all of these administrative monsters. big whoopie-doo. i would gladly be 30 years younger and a newbie. as a user of ripe, apnic, icann, ... i am telling you that it is hard for me to tell the difference these days in arrogance, application of power, bureaucratic delay, political maneuvering, stonewalling, blah blah blah. and when you push back as opposed to seriously discussing my concerns, as has been the case for a few years now, all i can think is QED. like other representative systems such as legislatures, the RIRs have moved from being associations of their users to becoming self-perpetuating governmental bureaucracies, who are not actually users themselves, but speak for us, tell us what we think and should do, and how we are being uncooperative and sneering. but at least the RIRs are not invading foreign countries and murdering people, as my local governmental bureaucracy seems wont to do. and don't give me "why don't you help?" i have for decades. you recently stopped listening. randy