Hi Denis, All, The DBTF recommendation doesn't go into the detail of use cases. That level should be deliberated and teased out by the WG, and the associated RIPE policies considered along with other methods such as training material, best practice/support documentation, ARCs, etc. So, here we are :) Question for the WG: A primary purpose for registering PA assignments in the RIPE database was to show the LIR's utilization of their existing allocated space in order to justify their request for an additional allocation from the RIPE NCC. As that purpose is now obsolete, is there another reason for policy to insist ("must") LIRs register PA assignments rather than giving LIRs the choice ("may') to do so or not? On Mon, May 16, 2022 at 2:35 PM denis walker <ripedenis@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi James
On Sun, 15 May 2022 at 19:38, James Kennedy <jameskennedy001@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
On Sun, 15 May 2022 at 18:01, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Those that register high amounts of detail even though they are not required to do so - what makes you think that they would stop if they are no longer required to do so?
I think removing the policy mandate to register all infra pa assignments would reduce the potential for some LIRs to misinterpret the intent of the policy, e.g. think they must register loads of /32s. Personally I don’t see this proposal as a silver bullet to resolve all LIR IPv4 registration issues, but a helpful piece in the larger puzzle.
Another option could be to more clearly explain what exactly is and is not intended by the policy. And I’m sure the author would appreciate additional constructive suggestions.
I am confused by the DBTF recommendation which I think also needs more clarity. The recommendation says: "recommends that as resource holders have full responsibility over the registration of their IPv4 PA assignment(s), they are free to make assignments or not....and documenting IPv4 PA assignment(s) will stop being a policy requirement."
I read this as meaning ALL assignments. This policy proposal seems to be suggesting to only change policy for an LIR's infrastructure assignments, leaving all assignment blocks to end users as a 'must' still be documented. So what is the intention here?
You're right, the differentiation of issuing PA space to third parties is not made in that recommendation statement but the following: "However, if a resource holder wants to sub-allocate or partition part of their IPv4 resources to another entity, the task force strongly recommends documenting this sub-allocation or assignment in the RIPE Database." If the author and WG don't agree with "assignment" in that last sentence, indeed the scope for consideration can be *all* PA assignments ("can" rather than "must" be registered in the RIPE Database).
In other words: I still find it totally unclear what the underlying problem statement of this proposal is. Your attempt to do so by referring to "large amount of objects put into the DB for infrastructure" didn't make it any clearer.
I can’t speak on behalf of the proposal as I’m not the author. I’m only giving context to the DBTF recommendation.
[..]
This sounds more like a task for the training department or for the ARCs than for a policy change to me.
The training department and ARCs help enforce policy.
Help enforce, and plain help LIRs to better understand what is expected from them, even if not written down. The DBTF seems to want "less detailed infrastructure objects", though I fail the reasoning for that - but if that is the goal, it could be done by adding the expected level of detail to the LIR training.
Agree this would also help but unfortunately not all LIR administrators attend training courses. No matter how many tasty cookies are on offer :(
Are we no longer aiming for accurate registration, because the DBTF finds that too resource consuming? I'm not sure I understand that line of argument.
I've not seen that being made as an argument by anyone. Data accuracy is very high on the list of Data Management Principles:
Yes. So what is the intended benefit when aiming for a reduction of registry entries?
Improve data accuracy for one. From personal experience of managing multiple LIRs of vastly varying sizes, I found maintaining fewer objects far easier to keep data up-to-date in the RIPE database.
I don't see this as an issue of numbers. The real question should be "What is the purpose of storing this data?" If there is a valid purpose for this data then reducing numbers of valid data to improve the quality of what remains is the wrong approach.
Agree with valid purpose being the baseline driver for (any) data storage. But I don't see that as being mutually exclusive to not having registrations that seemingly don't have valid purpose, e.g. assignments under /24s PA allocations. Regards, James DBTF (apwg co-chair hat still off)
cheers denis co-chair DB-WG
But of course that’s a personal anecdote. I would be very interested to hear other people’s real life experiences, opinions and suggestions.
Regards, James DBTF
On Sun, May 15, 2022 at 6:01 PM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Sun, May 15, 2022 at 04:53:59PM +0200, James Kennedy wrote:
assignment-to-self would still be possible, just no more mandatory.
Correct, I believe that's the aim of this proposal. LIRs will no longer be obliged by policy to register all their infrastructure assignments in the RIPE Database.
Technically, they have never been obliged to register this in fine detail ever. Though, some do, and some do not. Setting aside a /24 and marking this as "infrastructure" has always been good enough (modulo AW and Infra-AW and all the fine print).
Those that register high amounts of detail even though they are not required to do so - what makes you think that they would stop if they are no longer required to do so?
In other words: I still find it totally unclear what the underlying problem statement of this proposal is. Your attempt to do so by referring to "large amount of objects put into the DB for infrastructure" didn't make it any clearer.
[..]
This sounds more like a task for the training department or for the ARCs than for a policy change to me.
The training department and ARCs help enforce policy.
Help enforce, and plain help LIRs to better understand what is expected from them, even if not written down. The DBTF seems to want "less detailed infrastructure objects", though I fail the reasoning for that - but if that is the goal, it could be done by adding the expected level of detail to the LIR training.
Current policy has resulted in considerable PA assignment registration inconsistencies by LIRs (see https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-767#612).
Ignoring for the moment that not all LIRs are identical, that still sounds to me like "training and ARC" - and why would the proposal being discussed here have an effekt on these inconsistencies?
[..]
Are we no longer aiming for accurate registration, because the DBTF finds that too resource consuming? I'm not sure I understand that line of argument.
I've not seen that being made as an argument by anyone. Data accuracy is very high on the list of Data Management Principles:
Yes. So what is the intended benefit when aiming for a reduction of registry entries?
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
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