Dear APWG, On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 03:58:47PM +0200, Marco Schmidt wrote:
The Discussion Period for the policy proposal 2016-03, "Locking Down the Final /8 Policy" has been extended until 15 July 2016.
It took me quite a while, but I've re-read all the 247(!) e-mails that have been sent on the topic of this policy proposal. To sum it up, you as a community need to do MUCH better - this was a huge waste of human life time and attention. Many mails have been very repetitive - as Sander already pointed out during the discussion, things that have been answered and dismissed do not get more relevant because they are repeated 10 times more. Also, many mails have been very long, without actually having a clear point - and whole subthreads of 30+ mails did not even refer to something in this policy proposal at all but about "how can we do something else?". The summary of positions that I could extract to the best of my abilities (I spent almost a day on this) is attached below. Only comments sent after v2 was announced have been included, but I did read all of the mails, including v1, to see if it would make a difference. The proposer and a few other community members have done a very thorough job actually addressing the concerns raised. Purely counting numbers, we could have done with a few more voices of support, though. But anyway: this is not the final call on this proposal, but the end of the discussion phase, and the PDP has the following to say on this: "At the end of the Discussion Phase, the proposer, with the agreement of the WG chair, decides whether the proposal will move to the next phase (Review Phase) or if it should be withdrawn from the RIPE PDP, depending on the feedback received." I discussed this with Remco, and he wants to go ahead with the proposal, taking into account suggestions made regarding textual improvements and clarity of language. The WG chairs agree, so this will now go into impact analysis, and based on that, into review phase. At the end of the review phase, we need to have consensus, though - which doesn't mean "everyone has to agree", but at least we need to have *strong* support, and of course have to address all opposing arguments. So the WG chairs and the proposer have agreed that the proposal would needs be withdrawn if there is no stronger support in the review phase. Now you can argue about the process, if you want - but please read the PDP document first: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-642 before making statements what we can and should do. We do not enter another round of discussion on the proposal itself now - this will have to wait until Marco posts the impact analysis and announces the start of the review phase, in a few weeks' time. Gert Doering -- APWG chair ---------------------------- Summary on 2016-03 v2 Discussion period for v1 started: April 28, 2016 Discussion period for v2 started: June 15, 2016 Discussion period ended: July 15, 2016 (after extention) Mails: 247 (only looking at those with "2016-03" in the Subject: line) Only mails sent after June 16 (announcement of version 2.0) have been considered - v1.0 was very clearly refused by a large number of voices. Supportive voices William Waites - "the new version suits us just fine" Jan Ingvoldstad - "all the extremely bad opposing non-arguments kindof have convinced me that 2016-03 is needed, and should probably be implemented." Sebastian Wiesinger - "support, because /22 policy is there to enable ISP business, not to make profit by selling it" (shortened) Ondrej.Caletka - "support, /22 [..] should be used to operate a network or returned to the RIPE NCC" Neutral / comments James Blessing Stefan Prager - "long mail, no clear statement wrt supporting 2016-03" (but claiming it's "inconceivable that this proposal is allowed to go forward", and starting a sub-thread about costs and voting) sub-thread with Sander Steffan, Denis Fondras, Remco van Mook, Radu-Adrian FEURDEAN, Jan Ingvoldstad "I do agree, though, with the repeated criticism about how M&A is handled" Peter Hessler "+1 on 'giving up on this and calling a ban on further changes to the IPv4 policy'" Randy Bush - "RIR stands for Rinse and Infinite Repeat" Peter Koch - "v2 is better, but more work on the text and references is needed to achieve clarity" (answered by Remco van Mook, and "noted") Tore Anderson - explicitely neutral on v2, "maybe not a good idea or worth the trouble, but neutral/abstaining" Payam Poursaied - long post about unfairness in the old days between some LIRs receiving more space than others, but no clear statement wrt 2016-03 (starting a sub-thread about IPv4, IPv6, regional impossibilities, all not related to 2016-03) Questions James Blessing - question about "what sort of transfers do we need?" (expressing neutrality on the proposal) Patrick Velder - "status: for assignments from ALOCATED FINAL?" (answered by Sander Steffann) Ian.Dickinson - "what about pre-existing transfers?" Opposition considered addressed Riccardo Gori - opposition on the basis that this takes away some legitimate rights from LIRs currently having a /22 and numbering customers from it (considered addressed: if a LIR is *using* a /22, nothing changes except the label on the inetnum) and that it would put him at a market disadvantage if he cannot potentially *sell* his business, including the /22, in the future (considered addressed by v2: M&A are permitted, only transfers are not, so selling a business has no impact) "this would create CLASS E unusable LIRs" (considered out-of-scope - IPv4 is coming to an end, and without a very restrictive last-/8 policy, these LIRs would not have any IPv4 today - so don't complain about the restrictions) sub-thread with Nick Hilliard, Sander Steffann (addressing the points), more Riccardo Gori, and more sub-threats, in a very repetitive way - main point is "disadvantages class-b LIRs", repeated many times, and answered many times by different persons Radu-Adrian FEURDEAN - objects to disallowing only transfers of "after 14 September 2012" allocations, that it would create "heavily disadvantaged members" and that the intention to make IPv4 last as long as possible is only "... meant to be the new equivalent of gold" and that new LIRs are not forced to deploy IPv6 answered in detail by Remco van Mook and Sebastian Wiesinger Yuri @ NTX NOC - "not needed, there is enough free v4" "RIPE is not there to limit abilities of members to use v4" "too complicated" (DB changes) first two addressed by Jan Ingvoldstadt, 3rd left unanswered Alexey Galaev - "because it limit in rights all new LIRs" (should use IPv4 more effectively and stipulate using IPv6) need "simple rules and right for all" (DB changes) answered by Jan Ingvoldstadt Arash Naderpour - "gives more advantage to the old LIRs, which is not fair" Stefan Prager - "because it *selectively* strips PA resource holders of their rights ..." -> transfer restrictions should be done equally to all PA blocks, or none (repetitive "class-b LIR" argument) Daniel Suchy - "because it's unfair to new LIRs" answered by Jan Ingvoldstadt Nick Hilliard - "because it will create underground and unregistered transfers of non-transferrable /22s" answered by Sander Steffan Elvis Velea - "opposing for the same reasons as Nick Hilliard" (which makes this "addressed by Sander's response to Nick") "retroactive" aspect answered by Tore Anderson, pointing to NCC SSA Storch Matei - agrees with Nick and Elvis, and because it's retroactive +1 from Patrick Velder Aleksey Bulgakov - opposes because "when you close down your business, you can no longer sell your IP addresses" answered by Jim Reid, sub-thread about returning addresses Daniel Baeza "there is already 2015-01 to prevent abusing..." Radu Gheorghiu 'I do not want to restrict transfers of /22s from the "last /18" (sic!)' Opposition considered not directly addressed yet Jim Reid - "further tweaks are needed" - clear statement needed that the policy applies to ALL future allocations, not just 185/8 (plus: make clearer that M&A are no longer disallowed by v2) Sascha Luck - not trusting M&A process to solve "real existant" business cases properly, if transfer policy cannot be used anymore -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279