On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 07:25:27PM +0200, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg wrote:
I don't see why this would mean "lower" number of LIRs?
Actually, I think will be the contrary. I think most of the end-users will become LIRs, especially if the AGM makes a smart move about how to attract them (fee scheme, contract, etc.).
I don't see why this would be desirable. If every end-user had to become a LIR, it would blow the NCC up into this humongous bureaucratic apparatus and, perhaps more importantly, make it a regional monopoly in the truest sense - every business and person needing internet resources would be *forced* to deal with the NCC.
I don't see also why this would create more disaggregation. The actual end-users will become LIRs. The actual LIRs will remain as LIRs. Both of them will announce the same addressing space. In summary: Who needs to have stable addresses and avoid renumbering if changing ISP or data center, or whatever, will be an LIRs.
We are coming at this from opposite sides. What I would like to see is that businesses and people who need (portable) resources don't *have to* become LIRs. Instead they contact their friendly neighbourhood sponsoring LIR and deal through them.
What I'm missing from your rationale for having those opinions?
Many of the LIRs in existence today *do not want to be LIRs*. They have become LIRs mostly because it was the only way for them to get (more) IPv4 resources or they needed portable resources. These LIRs have no interest and, often, no skills in dealing with the RIPE NCC. What I am proposing is, in essence, that LIRs become "sponsoring LIRs" for all resources. No more difference between "ASSIGNED PA" and "ALLOCATED PI", everything becomes, for practical purposes, "SUB-ALLOCATED" This enables LIRs with an interest to become resource management services for those who do *not* have this interest. End Users can choose a LIR to provide these services, if they are not happy with it, they can chose another and -that's the important difference - take their resources with them without having to renumber. Or, if they so chose, can become LIRs themselves. I've actually heard, as an argument for NAT66, that the users in question want to deploy that so they can avoid renumbering when changing connectivity providers. This could be avoided if those resources became portable. It should also have a positive effect on ripedb data quality if all resources are under the care of LIRs with the skills and an interest in their management. It reduces harm to end users' operations if a LIR is shut down for whatever reason. End users can simply switch to another sponsoring LIR. It may solve the issues that some large (governmental) orgs are having with policies and distributed resource management. There may be a de-aggregation effect, this can possibly be mitigated by minimum sub-allocation sizes though that may be wasteful. "SUB-ALLOCATED PA" already does a lot of this but a few changes are needed: - make SUB-ALLOCATED resources portable - change the subsequent allocation criteria to take account of SUB-ALLOCATED space, so it is possible for "sponsoring LIRs" to receive additional allocations even if SUB-ALLOCATED is not 90% assigned. rgds, Sascha Luck
-----Mensaje original----- De: address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net> en nombre de "Sascha Luck [ml]" <apwg@c4inet.net> Fecha: miércoles, 16 de mayo de 2018, 18:55 Para: Gert Doering <gert@space.net> CC: <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [address-policy-wg] proposal to remove IPv6 PI
Hi Gert,
On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 06:35:32PM +0200, Gert Doering wrote:
In other words, decouple the "LIR" function from the "ISP" function.
Well, that seems to be what Jordi's idea seems to be about - but it is neither easy nor straightforward how to get there. We've tried a few years ago, and when you mix in "fees", "membership / voting rights" and "allocation size", things get amazingly complicated...
I think it would actually simplify a lot of those issues. It doesn't remove the RIR->LIR->End User hierarchy but it removes the requirement that a LIR provide connectivity to an End User. (Basically, every LIR becomes a "sponsoring LIR")
This removes the need for ISPs or hosters to be LIRs where they neither want to nor have the necessary skills or the time.
The outcome would most likely be a lot fewer LIRs with a lot higher fees but they can of course recoup these via fees to their end users.
The only negative I can see is deaggregation of IPv6 space but I think that particular boat sailed a long time ago...
rgds, Sascha Luck
(And if you are *not* looking at these aspects, removing the PA/PI label isn't actually achieving much, except replacing it by a "block for member" vs. "block for non-member" label, no?)
Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
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